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are not allowed to let anyone know they are actually women. The men express "shock" at cleavage, while slinking off to trophy wives, mistresses, or prostitutes.
by Magnifico on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 02:50:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I think what she wore was quite appropriate for her age, build, position the occasion and that she was the best dressed woman there.  

She either has very good taste in clothing, or employs someone who does.  

by zoe on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 02:58:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I agree. Merkel looked great! Her gown was perfect for the occasion: the opening of Oslo Opera House.
by Magnifico on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 03:08:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Who cares? She's still an annoying right-wing politician (even if by far the least bad as right-wing politicians come).

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 03:10:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
she's actually a pretty damn decent rightwing politician, which is a LOT better than most of the lefty ones we have these days.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 03:13:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Better in what sense?

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 03:17:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I would have asked, what lefty ones?...

"Pretending that you already know the answer when you don't is not actually very helpful." ~Migeru.
by poemless on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 03:19:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]
She has her good moments -  like stopping a new arms race by nixing the   new membership drive of NATO.

Also, she is a model for women everywhere.  Women are severely under-represented in positions of authority all over the world.  

by zoe on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 03:13:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Your argument would apply to Maggie Thatcher, too... I don't think that proving that a woman can be as swift a machiavellian power tactician as Kohl (because this is what Merkel proves) suffices for a good role model. I'd more wish someone like Ypsilanti would be counted as such.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 03:21:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't agree that that is what she proves.

I am no right winger but I was very glad that someone put a stop to this encirclement of Russia.  

by zoe on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 03:24:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't agree that that is what she proves.

Don't implement any significant changes, but stay on top while letting your internal enemies self-destruct -- she was a good apprentice to the Godfather. (So good that she went Brutus over him in the party finance scandal, a move that anno dacuma launched her leadership bid.)

On the Russia policy, that certainly wasn't she. It's long-standing German Staatsräson, and it took some time (and some pressure) until Merkel swung behind Schröder's line.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 03:32:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Schröder wasn't at the NATO Summit.  

She was.  

by zoe on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 03:42:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well duh, being the current incumbent to lead a German delegation continuing to act according to German Staatsräson.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 03:49:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You are minimizing her input in the decision making process.  Are you doing this because she is a woman?

I am sure she got a lot of pressure to be more of an Atlanticist on this question from her own party and from allies.

by zoe on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 04:01:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
How she looks - don't particularly care. Obsessions over  female politicians' clothes and in particular their breasts, not limited incidentally to public figures, bleh - right, left, or neither. Note how many articles or private discussions talk about how clothes show off women's breasts, note same with respect to how pants show off men's penises. The former are a bit more common than the latter.
by MarekNYC on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 03:16:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
but a lot of women take their cue from women they see as being successful, so in that regard, she is a role model for women
by zoe on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 03:18:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
you see, if you became Chancellor of Germany, and were invited to the opening of such an opera house, you wouldn't have to think about what it was you were going to wear, because you have seen pics of male Chancellors doing such things literally thousands of times.

Women cannot say the same and it's a whole new experience for all of womankind  every time this happens.  And, amazingly, it's 2008 of the C.E.  !

by zoe on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 03:23:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You are suggesting that womankind should be that much interested in what chancellors wear in the opera...

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 03:26:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]
it does very much.

inappropriate clothing is a surefire way to erode one's image as long as people care about such things.  

by zoe on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 03:29:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Who cares?

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 03:32:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]
spoken like someone who has never had his authority challenged by co-workers or subordinates.
by zoe on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 03:35:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
So your answer is: your co-workers care.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 03:50:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
you are putting words in my mouth

everyone cares about such things, or most everyone because outward appearance is one way we, as human beings, use to judge others

you have seen countless studies on such things I am sure

by zoe on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 04:02:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Women have their appearance/clothing policed by co-workers (what are they making that they can afford that?  Is sexual harassment ok if she always wears short skirts?), employers (dress codes), mates (why don't you ever wear...), friends (you're not going out in that, are you?), complete strangers ("tramp"), religious authorities (dress codes), family (you're never going to find a husband dressed like that), media (is Merkel's gown too sexy?  vote now!) ...  It's not always the case.  But let's not pretend it never happens.

I suspect men face this to a lesser extent, usually with more attention paid to what their dress says about how much money they make than what it says about their sexuality.  Though I suspect there is a smidgen of that too.  

It's great to say, who cares?!  It's super that YOU don't care.  Lots of other people do, though.  We are still animals negotiating hierarchies.  We've not transcended into some otherwordly race yet...

"Pretending that you already know the answer when you don't is not actually very helpful." ~Migeru.

by poemless on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 04:04:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Is a long article (in fact several articles) in a political weekly that barely touches upon the issues in your paragraph countering this appearance policing, or is such care taken by the magazine only strengthening it? Because that's the issue here m-person turned on its head (congrants to her BTW) - I'm well aware of your points.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 04:50:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't understand your question, nor was I responding to either a magazine article or zoe m-person.  I was responding to you and your continued "who cares" which seemed a bit flippant and undeservedly testy.  I couldn't tell if you were frustrated by the comments or just the fact that this person was posting, to be honest.  And if someone irritates you so much, and you know they will irritate you, why not ignore them instead of responding to them with comments like "who cares?" (This, from the very person who normally demands a high standard of intellectual integrity...)  

I've had to struggle to understand much of what is happening around here lately.  Many of you seem to be in a bad mood.  I don't know if it is the poor economic outlook or what.  But a drum circle may be in order...  For valid reasons or not, lots of people are feeling barked at and alienated.

"Pretending that you already know the answer when you don't is not actually very helpful." ~Migeru.

by poemless on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 05:08:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]
don't understand your question

That's bad because my continued questioning of who cares (to which I did get an answer) is directly connected. Either I parsed it badly, or you followed this discussion via Recent Comments. I am referring to the thread-starter SPIEGEL article on Merkel.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 05:17:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I know what you are referring to.  I said I was responding to you not the article.  

"Pretending that you already know the answer when you don't is not actually very helpful." ~Migeru.
by poemless on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 05:33:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Hm, so how should I better parse my question?

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 05:34:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Perhaps it helps to point out that my repeated "Who cares?" was a question, not a comment?

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 05:38:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]
A question I answered no less!

"Pretending that you already know the answer when you don't is not actually very helpful." ~Migeru.
by poemless on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 05:40:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yet, you based your judgement of me on characterising it as a flippant, testy comment. So while you don't understand what I was out for, I don't understand what's your problem with me :-)

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 05:48:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm putting words into DoDo's mouth here, but I think he's saying that women are doing a good chunk of the enforcing in order to establish their own pecking order, but this ultimately works against their own interests.

you are the media you consume.

by MillMan (millguy at gmail) on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 05:22:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
No, I am not saying that.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 05:35:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
heh. ok, I'm saying it.

you are the media you consume.

by MillMan (millguy at gmail) on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 05:37:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm saying it too.  

No idea what DoDo's trying to say, though.

"Pretending that you already know the answer when you don't is not actually very helpful." ~Migeru.

by poemless on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 05:39:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
there is no name for these type of women, is there?

we should coin one.  

by zoe on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 05:51:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It's not a "type."  Everyone does it to some extent or another.  It's just that some recognize and admit it and want to avoid it and some don't.

"Pretending that you already know the answer when you don't is not actually very helpful." ~Migeru.
by poemless on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 05:52:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]
There is protocol for these things.  Generally, a person is expected to dress in a way that reflects the occasion.  Unless you are a lifeguard you probably don't wear a bathing suit to work.  Because you are expected to send a message to people that you can differentiate between work and play - and you are there to work.  If you go to a funeral, you are expected to dress according to tradition out of respect for the dead, not like this.  If you go to a gala event, a tuxedo or evening gown are appropriate.  Evening gowns are not exactly meant to express androgyny.  Just the opposite.  People just are not used to seeing female heads of state, and therefore heads of state in evening gowns.  Suddenly they are reminded, gah!, it's a woman, and it feels inappropriate.  We're letting her do a man's job, she could at least pretend to be a man and cover those things, is what (some) people think to themselves.

"Pretending that you already know the answer when you don't is not actually very helpful." ~Migeru.
by poemless on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 03:44:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Sure she's a potential role model, but that has nothing to do with what clothes she wears.
by MarekNYC on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 03:25:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
spoken like someone who has never had comments made about his appearance at work! ;-)
by zoe on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 03:31:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Maybe.  But how many stories about Bush in the flight suit were there?  Let's be honest, that was basically the press standing around saying, "Wow, his cock is huge!"

Conservatives want live babies so they can raise them to be dead soldiers. - George Carlin
by Drew J Jones (myfriends@thisispancakes.com) on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 03:23:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I said there's a lot more of it for women than for men, not that it doesn't exist for men. In that sense any individual story like this is not indicative of sexism. Just like a bunch of office drones speculating on a colleague's blow job skills isn't (similar discussions among women aren't unheard of and everybody, male or female, engages in sexual objectification occasionally - it's inevitable) But in the aggregate a pretty clear pattern emerges.
by MarekNYC on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 03:31:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Oh.My.God.Marek.

That is exactly what sexism is!

by zoe on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 03:34:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I was just screwing with you.

Conservatives want live babies so they can raise them to be dead soldiers. - George Carlin
by Drew J Jones (myfriends@thisispancakes.com) on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 03:38:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
really?  I must have missed that.
by zoe on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 03:32:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I think it was more of a "his symbolic cock is apparently huge"

Reminds me of a bad joke the punchline of which is "the Potato, it goes in the front."

"I said, 'Wait a minute, Chester, You know I'm a peaceful man...'" Robbie Robertson

by NearlyNormal on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 04:48:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, yeah, it was "ZOMGWECANHAZTEHMANLINESSES!" -- the perfect way for the press to go along with its "rough, tough Texas cowboy" meme.  And, with that set, suddenly the bit on Kerry becomes, "Flip-flopper!  Wind-surfer!  He looks French!  What a pussy!"

Conservatives want live babies so they can raise them to be dead soldiers. - George Carlin
by Drew J Jones (myfriends@thisispancakes.com) on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 05:43:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I like the way Frenchmen look.  Vereee sexeee!
by zoe on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 05:52:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
How's that?  

"Pretending that you already know the answer when you don't is not actually very helpful." ~Migeru.
by poemless on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 05:54:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Like John Kerry, of course.  (And around we go!)

Conservatives want live babies so they can raise them to be dead soldiers. - George Carlin
by Drew J Jones (myfriends@thisispancakes.com) on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 05:59:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Haha.  Er, I don't remember him being sexy.  Well, I think Putin is hot so I'm in no position to judge...  In fact, I'm in no position to judge those who judge Merkel!  

"Pretending that you already know the answer when you don't is not actually very helpful." ~Migeru.
by poemless on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 06:02:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
if Putin were  a few inches taller, he would have a chance with me ;-)
by zoe on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 06:07:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]
do you want us to send him platform shoes?

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 06:10:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Nah, Putin's a child molester.  (ducks swing from poemless)  You saw the video.  (ducks)

Conservatives want live babies so they can raise them to be dead soldiers. - George Carlin
by Drew J Jones (myfriends@thisispancakes.com) on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 06:14:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Actually, that's not a funny accusation to make.

He's eccentric.  Sure.  But not that.

"Pretending that you already know the answer when you don't is not actually very helpful." ~Migeru.

by poemless on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 06:16:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Okay, he's weird.  How's that?

Conservatives want live babies so they can raise them to be dead soldiers. - George Carlin
by Drew J Jones (myfriends@thisispancakes.com) on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 06:25:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Undeniably.  But in a cute way...

"Pretending that you already know the answer when you don't is not actually very helpful." ~Migeru.
by poemless on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 06:28:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Of course....

Conservatives want live babies so they can raise them to be dead soldiers. - George Carlin
by Drew J Jones (myfriends@thisispancakes.com) on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 06:29:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
nah, I don't want him turning into Sarkozy!!!!!
by zoe on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 06:18:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]
by MarekNYC on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 06:13:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Oh, I heard! but shhhhh.  I'm saving that gem for O&E.

"Pretending that you already know the answer when you don't is not actually very helpful." ~Migeru.
by poemless on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 06:14:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
relatively thin, not overtly muscular, craggy features, eyes are bright with intelligence (most of the time), well dressed compared to USAers, not "pretty boys"
by zoe on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 06:05:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I have to send you a picture... ;-)

"Dieu se rit des hommes qui se plaignent des conséquences alors qu'ils en chérissent les causes" Jacques-Bénigne Bossuet
by Melanchthon on Thu Apr 17th, 2008 at 03:53:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

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