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There's the occasional stuff among western Europeans about Poland as some sort of US trojan horse deliberately trying to undermine and destroy the EU.

Yep, no need to explain to me. (This parallels my point to EUropeans in France and further West about neoliberals not being Eurosceptic.)

think a sort of Polish Chavez or a bit worse, with the same attitude towards the EU, and in particular Germany, that Venezuela or Iran have towards the US, only a lot closer.

If I try to think of that, I see a posturing President that lobbies neighbours it can -- them being the Baltics and maybe Ukraine. However, on one hand, such a Poland would not have an oil wealth to dish out (nor military strength, which would be more to the point in the given context), limiting its influence on other countries. On the other hand, neither Iran nor Venezuela are connected in a strong political institution with the USA, so they are little help for me to imagine how such a Poland would act.

Here are my initial thoughts.

First of all, would NATO fall apart, I think the Polish elite (and population) would splinter into three camps:

  1. exclusively Europhile, be it for idealist and pragmatic reasons (a minority, but would that not include even some CAP-receiving peasants?),
  2. Europhiles who'd make Poland a staunch anti-defense-integration pole in the EU and who'd continue Atlanticism in bilateral form (this is what Polish elites already did on Iraq and missile defense), methinks likely the majority,
  3. Atlanticist Eurosceptics.

With these three camps, I think the most likely scenario is moderate deterioration of Poland-rest-of-the-EU relations.

But if the worst-case scenario of an autocratic and hostile right-wing Poland emerges,

  • that will be first of all really bad for Poland (not to mention the Russian minorityx in the Baltics, AND the Baltic states if Russia feels freeer to respond, unless the US builds bases there too),
  • the direct economic consequences would again be more serious for Poland (loss of subsidies as well as trade),
  • Poland could well be dumped from the EU (or its government choose itself) for some gross violations of the acquis, say the re-introduction of the dealth penalty.

So I'm still trying to imagine what worse could come. For example, would Sweden and the EU agree to the Russia-Germany Baltic pipeline, what possiblities do you see for an escalation, beyond immediately turning off the existing pipeline?

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Fri Apr 4th, 2008 at 01:02:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I should make clear that I started this sub-thread really to explore the possibility, I have no clear view here. Just now I am thinking about the implicatios of US bases in a Baltics that is semi-broken-off the EU. With supply lines crossing the EU.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Fri Apr 4th, 2008 at 01:13:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I largely agree with you on the likely scenario, except that the remaining Europhiles would actually be likely to favour  EU defense integration as a replacement for the security provided by NATO. On the other hand the rest would seek to sabotage any integration or joint action on any issue whatsoever.

By Chavez I meant largely democratic but with a fair amount of authoritarianism thrown in, very nationalist, very anti-neoliberal, very hostile to the business interests of the 'enemy', skip the socialist though not the revolutionary rhetoric, tons of bluster. Thus, on the Baltic pipeline you'd probably get threats to blow the thing up in any crisis. You'd also be likely to see far worse tensions with Belarus regarding the Polish minority in the West of the country.

that will be first of all really bad for Poland

Absolutely. Yet another good reason for any Pole to support NATO's continued existence.

by MarekNYC on Fri Apr 4th, 2008 at 01:26:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]
On the other hand the rest would seek to sabotage any integration or joint action on any issue whatsoever.

If bilateral Atlanticism is so en vogue already, why do you think all of its supporters would turn across-the-board Eurosaboteurs?

By Chavez I meant ... very anti-neoliberal, very hostile to the business interests of the 'enemy'

(For others) read: German Capital Out.

blow the thing up in any crisis. You'd also be likely to see far worse tensions with Belarus

Hm, that'd bring a triple pipeline blackmail situation: Russia could blackmail everyone, Belarus could blackmail Poland, and Poland could blackmail Germany. Huh...

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Fri Apr 4th, 2008 at 01:37:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

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