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The Dalai Lama is so spiritual he was best friends with the Aum sect of Japan.

The Dalai Lama is so power-hungry he made defining strategic mistakes for which his people have to suffer until today.

The Dalai Lama is so self-conscious as to admire Hollywood celebrities.

The Dalai Lama is so up to date as to prostrate himself before the White Man.

by antonymous on Fri Apr 4th, 2008 at 07:14:01 PM EST
I think account of this user who just registered and posted first abusive letter should be deleted.
by FarEasterner on Sat Apr 5th, 2008 at 03:48:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]
[ET Moderation Technology™] I don't see any reason to ban the user. You have already registered your displeasure by 0-rating their comment. Apparently it is beneath you to ask for substantiation of the claims made in the comment, let alone provide a refutation of them. If they are lies it should be easy, or at least the source of the claims could be traced.

It'd be nice if the battle were only against the right wingers, not half of the left on top of that — François in Paris
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Apr 5th, 2008 at 04:00:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]
If such antonymous users are open and encouraged by some to abuse I see no reason to be here anymore.
by FarEasterner on Sat Apr 5th, 2008 at 04:48:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Antonymous is not the same thing as anonymous.

This is not a new user account as you claim, it was created some months ago, and they got into a spat over Tibet with another user.

Much harsher words are written here on ET about political and religious leaders than what Antonymous has written in this thread and which you characterise as "abuse". Very specific claims are made. Refute them if they are transparent lies.

What do you suggest, that we also ban people who rated Antonymous' comment highly because they are "encouraging" abuse?

It took me about 5 seconds to find a source associating the Aum Shinryko story with Chinese attempts at character assassination of the Dalai Lama. Surely it can't be that hard to debate the claim on their merits or lack thereof?

It'd be nice if the battle were only against the right wingers, not half of the left on top of that — François in Paris

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Apr 5th, 2008 at 05:41:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Now I definitely see no reason to continue here.

If you have access I have request to delete my account and all my diaries.

by FarEasterner on Sat Apr 5th, 2008 at 06:10:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
[ET Moderation Technology™] We don't delete accounts or diaries.

If you really wish, then we can hide your diaries and rename your account but you have made many excellent and valuable contributions on this site that it would be a real shame to remove your diaries.

Most people who have commented have been really interested in this topic and just one comment doesn't support your view - although it has clearly caused offence to you.  If others find it offensive they can troll rate it and the comment will become hidden, which is a clear message to that user that such comments are not acceptable here.

If you refer to the FAQ section on front pager duties it outlines how we deal with offensive comments and trolls, as a community.  We have this in place to try to keep things as fair as possible.

Ad astra per aspera

by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Sat Apr 5th, 2008 at 07:16:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Which points raised above are abusive to you, and why?

I know too little from the situation to take position - ET has prided itself to confront accepted truth and lies in all shapes and forms in a civilized manner and I'd like it to stay it like that.

You being offended is mysterious to me, and your refusal to engage antonymous also. As Colman said, simply based on antonymous's post I can't see a reason to troll it, although I'd say it's harshly worded and the arguments are unfounded by evidence. Asking for an immediate ban is not appropriate at this point.

Please tell us why you think it's nonsense.

by Nomad on Sat Apr 5th, 2008 at 11:22:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You being offended is mysterious to me

A practising Buddhist revering the Dalai Lama, and a non-White to boot, seeing him accused in a reverse-racist context? His reaction is excessive by ET standards of stomaching strong disagreement, but certainly not mysterious.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Sat Apr 5th, 2008 at 11:27:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
There's more to that post than just race, DoDo. A lot more. And the race accusation is nebulous at best. I took it as political, even when the phrasing is borderline.

Just trying to help, but if I'm setting things up for another race-centred argument, I'm out off here right now.

by Nomad on Sat Apr 5th, 2008 at 11:52:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]
There's more to that post than just race, DoDo

<sheesh> I didn't say there isn't. I tried to explain to you why someone like FarEasterner would be offended. That you don't find it offensive is entirely different matter.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Sat Apr 5th, 2008 at 11:57:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Sorry Nomad, re-reading, I see it's partially my fault. I meant to write something like and a non-White to boot, reading various gravely negative claims about the man, to boot seeing him accused in a reverse-racist context?, but the stuff between the two "to boot"'s lost.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Sat Apr 5th, 2008 at 12:03:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I hope this is all clear now. Reverse racism is kind of a tricky concept.

I see it in the same way you seem to: Perceived discrimination on behalf of coloured people by white people / racism implied in coloured people by white people. Often for questionable reasons, but also potentially correct.

by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Sat Apr 5th, 2008 at 01:12:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Unfortunately, when I came back, there was just your first reply. So I took a break from all of this and had an evening of jazz and wine, including the best Chardonnay I've had the pleasure to drink so far.

Off to sleep.

Another time I'll deal with my thoughts on (reverse) racism, because there's plenty for everyone where I live.

by Nomad on Sat Apr 5th, 2008 at 07:15:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, I do think the comment about him prostrating before the White ManTM was a bit over the line.

WHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!
by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Sat Apr 5th, 2008 at 02:21:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]
If I am not mistaken it has been alleged that the Dalai Lama was helped to escape Tibet in 1959 by the CIA, and has since then pleaded to the US government for support against China.

Now, clearly, there are nicer ways to put it than "prostrated himself before the White Man".

It'd be nice if the battle were only against the right wingers, not half of the left on top of that — François in Paris

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Apr 5th, 2008 at 02:49:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'd really like to know who this White Man is.  Does he speak for all of us?  Can I meet him?

Presumably he lives in The WestTM, too, whatever that is.

WHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!

by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Sat Apr 5th, 2008 at 02:53:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Erm, I see only one specific claim among the four, so providing a refutation is a bit difficult. It's on antonymous to give evidence for these serious accusations (and ET is no place for those who aren't ready to find them). But I second you that this is not a bannable offense.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Sat Apr 5th, 2008 at 10:25:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]
He was nasty about a political leader: I believe that's within the bounds of acceptable discussion. We don't ban people for disagreeing with us.

If he's wrong, correct him.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Sat Apr 5th, 2008 at 04:08:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Nastiness can be attributed to only 2 of his (or her) 4 statements, if the first is factually incorrect, the last statement is abuse. If this is OK to you I am sorry, but there is fundamental flaw in rules of this forum, anywhere on the web such posts are automatically detected and deleted.
by FarEasterner on Sat Apr 5th, 2008 at 05:32:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Nonsense: neither being a Chinese nationalist or being a believer in Chinese government propaganda is a banning offence around here, or on any other forum with sane rules. That comment does not, as far as I can see, rise to anywhere near the level of gross hate speech that would justify banning.

We can't go around banning people just because they insult and abuse world leaders: there would be nobody left here in that case.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Sat Apr 5th, 2008 at 09:39:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It appears some Aum Shinryko leaders have claimed inspiration or support from the Dalai Lama. However, it is unclear whether the Dalai Lama has ever publicly supported Aum Shinryko. This article in Time Magazine written from Beijing puts the claim in the context of Chinese character assassination of the Dalai Lama.

TIME: Does the Dalai Lama Still Matter? (By AUSTIN RAMZY/BEIJING October 15, 2007)

Given the changes that are unfolding in Tibet now, it's worth wondering whether the Dalai Lama really matters any more. Beijing announced earlier this year that it will have the final say on the naming of his reincarnation, and the idea of an atheist, authoritarian government holding final say in a religious matter elicited condemnation in the West. Meetings in July between his representatives and Chinese authorities aimed at improving dialogue between the two sides produced no concrete results. State-run Chinese news organs have given heavy play in recent days to stories claiming that the Dalai Lama is a supporter of the Japanese doomsday cult Aum Shinrikyo and a betrayer of Buddhism.
(My emphasis)

It'd be nice if the battle were only against the right wingers, not half of the left on top of that — François in Paris
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Apr 5th, 2008 at 04:05:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]
  1. Has been dealt with by Migeru and appears to be Chinese government spin.

  2. Would you like to provide evidence to support that proposition?

  3. & 4. Is he cosying up to European and American celebrities and politicians for the sake of his own ego or is he using them to further his and/or the Tibetan people's aims? I think that it's more likely that he and the Tibetan movement are doing the latter than the former.

Point 4 could have been expressed more temperately,  by the way, which is what the 2 rating is for.

I don't buy the Dalai-Lama as saint spin, but your comment seems more reflective of Chinese government or nationalist spin than anything else. Evidence please.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Sat Apr 5th, 2008 at 09:44:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Hey.  I will not have you and Mig denigrating the Chinese government with accusations of spin.

WHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!
by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Sat Apr 5th, 2008 at 02:15:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Is the fact that the PRC has picked up on a story (and not been the original sourceof it) necessarily mean it is wrong?

Seems to me we are employing two sets of standards here in evidentiary evaluation.

"C'est un scandale !"

by redstar on Sun Apr 6th, 2008 at 12:17:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
No, it means that it needs corroboration because the source is known to be untrustworthy. Same as the US government talking about anything in  China or "Western" media talking about the Balkans.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Sun Apr 6th, 2008 at 12:20:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, I think this has been covered, below. There are sources other than the PRC offered below, and in fact the circumstantial evidence that mig throws up (esp as regards donations to the Tibetan government in Exile and their acceptance thereof) would suggest there is indeed something more to this than "beijing spin".

"C'est un scandale !"
by redstar on Sun Apr 6th, 2008 at 12:24:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yeah, all I see is the Dalai Lama being unbelievably naïve, which would be consistent with the diary's quoted characterisations of the Dalai Lama as "childlike".

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Apr 6th, 2008 at 12:26:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
this diarist has gotten away with picking and choosing sources (some of them decades old) he deems as credible, while when facts are in dispute and other sources are cited, these source's intergrity is quickly attacked not just by the diarist, as lies (charges he cannot of course back up), but also by the audience (calling respected and published political scientists on the left as "hacks" and so forth).

No, Colman, there's really nothing equal here imho.

"C'est un scandale !"

by redstar on Sun Apr 6th, 2008 at 12:26:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

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