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b) thousands of peoples may die decades from now because of them.
Very true. *Traitor*, n. A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
The interesting thing about this story (and the fact that makes worth pondering) is that it didn't originate from relatives of the disappeared, or from the usual nationalist Serb circles, but from Ms. Del Ponte herself, a person whom it would be quite a stretch to even imagine being partial to the Serb side. Evidently that she considered it worth mentioning, makes it more than just another Serb tall tale of Albanian gore.
The argument that this kind of story is easy to make up because there are many Serbs willing to believe it - is i.e. exactly the kind of argument that Serb nationalists who deny that Srebrenica ever really happened, use to deny that it ever really happenned. By itself it doesn't prove anything. The second argument would mean that all (and I mean all) cases of atrocities in the former Yugoslavia are better left forgotten and untouched, prosecutions should be dropped etc. In fact letting the story unexplored and unresearched risks fanning the flames of future conflicts IMHO much more than if it is indeed looked into. Finally, it seems much more likely that thousands of people may die decades from now because of Kosovo's unilateral declaration of independence than because of any gruesome tale from either side. The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom - William Blake
I note Doug M's main argument against Del Ponte herself seems to be a well emphasized low opinion of her... *Traitor*, n. A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
IIRC Doug has had historically a low opinion of Del Ponte, regarding her total lack of an understanding of what her actions entailed politically. Not as far as I can remember regarding her competence as a public prosecutor. Anyway it would be a far stretch indeed, I repeat, to portray Del Ponte as pro-Serb.
The two points I wanted to make, did not have mainly to do with whether this is a true story (we have no way to find out anymore) but rather with the potentially very contagious nature of the whole concept and the near certainty that were this an accusation of organ snatching against the Serbs, it would be treated with much less scepticism, to say the least. The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom - William Blake
For some odd reason, the men who maraud, rape and slice and dice, are often proud of their dirty work, to the point of compulsively wanting to show their deeds to journalists and witnesses. This has been the case through the 20th century. I can cite numerous examples, including the well known one in the Balkans in which the Italian ambassador, Kurt Erich Suckert, was passed a bowl full of eyeballs. Naser Oric showed his handiwork to a Canadian journalist. Hitler made films of the Valkyrie executions. Etc. It's no small wonder that journalists would be far more apt to hear of such acts than investigators.
Could you quote the source for us? *Traitor*, n. A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
One thing to note: I read these quotes in English, and Del Ponte's book is not written in English, and the quotes I read were not attributed to any particular translator. I actually don't know where they came from.
The book, which I have, has written "translated from American." I presume it must be based on tapes and put together in English by the two authors. Del Ponte does speak several languages.
Serb prisoners 'were stripped of their organs in Kosovo war' - Telegraph
Miss Del Ponte reports that the allegations were made by several sources, one of whom "personally made an organ delivery" to an Albanian airport for transport abroad, and "confirmed information directly gathered by the tribunal". According to the sources, senior figures in the Kosovo Liberation Army were aware of the scheme, in which hundreds of young Serbs were allegedly taken by truck from Kosovo to northern Albania where their organs were removed. Miss Del Ponte provides grim details of the alleged organ harvesting, and of how some prisoners were sewn up after having kidneys removed. "The victims, deprived of a kidney, were then locked up again, inside the barracks, until the moment they were killed for other vital organs. In this way, the other prisoners were aware of the fate that awaited them, and according to the source, pleaded, terrified, to be killed immediately," Miss Del Ponte writes.
Miss Del Ponte reports that the allegations were made by several sources, one of whom "personally made an organ delivery" to an Albanian airport for transport abroad, and "confirmed information directly gathered by the tribunal".
According to the sources, senior figures in the Kosovo Liberation Army were aware of the scheme, in which hundreds of young Serbs were allegedly taken by truck from Kosovo to northern Albania where their organs were removed. Miss Del Ponte provides grim details of the alleged organ harvesting, and of how some prisoners were sewn up after having kidneys removed.
"The victims, deprived of a kidney, were then locked up again, inside the barracks, until the moment they were killed for other vital organs. In this way, the other prisoners were aware of the fate that awaited them, and according to the source, pleaded, terrified, to be killed immediately," Miss Del Ponte writes.
That's a more complex picture (with not all alleged organ-harvesting equal to killing; throwing up the question whether there could have been survivors), and indeed Del Ponte reports sources making quite specific claims, it's not mere rumours. *Traitor*, n. A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
In the first excerpt (on what preceded the yellow house visit), I think I can read out something between the lines:
'The material within [from the office of the court] does not contain specific material from Albania; but a low number of witness statements and other material we have confirms and to a certain extent amplifies the stated information,' I noted in a memo on this activity. ...The victims of these cases were probably seized after the end of the NATO air campaign... It was not clear whether crimes committed in this arc of time fell under the mandate of the tribunal. The prosecutors office should have asked for the names of the sources from the journalists and UNMIK as well as any other information they had on this case.
...The victims of these cases were probably seized after the end of the NATO air campaign... It was not clear whether crimes committed in this arc of time fell under the mandate of the tribunal.
The prosecutors office should have asked for the names of the sources from the journalists and UNMIK as well as any other information they had on this case.
E.g., this case didn't solidify further not because of simply weak evidence but because it wasn't properly investigated; Del Ponte suggests her hands were bound, with the territorial and temporal limits to her Tribunal. The last sentence is mysterious, her being the Chief Prosecutor; does she suggest some outside (or lower-ranked inside) powers prevented the prosecutors' office from taking action?
From the second excerpt:
The house was now white. The owner denied it had ever been repainted even though investigators found traces of yellow along the base of its walls. ...The syringes, the iv solution bags, the gauze are clearly material which confirms the tales, but as proof they are unfortunately insufficient. The investigators were not able to determine whether the traces they found were of human blood. The sources did not indicated the position of the grave of the presumed victims and so we did not find the bodies.
...The syringes, the iv solution bags, the gauze are clearly material which confirms the tales, but as proof they are unfortunately insufficient. The investigators were not able to determine whether the traces they found were of human blood. The sources did not indicated the position of the grave of the presumed victims and so we did not find the bodies.
FWIW, a long time ago when I was learning English I was told Ms is neutral with respect to marital status, and I tend to use that almost exclusively. But that's just me. When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
The book reports a visit by Hague tribunal investigators to a house south of the Albanian town of Burrel where they found traces of blood across a wide area, as well as medical equipment. "The investigators found pieces of gauze, a used syringe and two plastic IV bags encrusted with mud and empty bottles of medicine, some of which was of a muscle relaxant often used in surgical operations," she writes. However, she concludes that the finds do not amount to sufficient proof for a war crimes tribunal.
"The investigators found pieces of gauze, a used syringe and two plastic IV bags encrusted with mud and empty bottles of medicine, some of which was of a muscle relaxant often used in surgical operations," she writes. However, she concludes that the finds do not amount to sufficient proof for a war crimes tribunal.
They also quote this negative view on the claims from someone in Serbia:
In Belgrade, Natasha Kandic, the highly respected head of the investigative Humanitarian Law Centre, said ordinary Serbs "welcome the publication of this book" but said allegations of organ-smuggling were "rumours". "I talked to her many times, she never told me about this," said Miss Kandic.
The Serb War Crimes people are on record as saying that Del Ponte informed them of the investigation.
This paragraph on Kandic is a mix of a few short disparate paraphrases and direct quotes, who knows how much mis-representation was in abridging a fuller interview, and who knows on how much information (presumably told by the interviewer) she could base her judgement. *Traitor*, n. A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
