European Tribune

Display:
Migeru:
Carnot's theorem means that the fraction Tcold/Thot of the energy wasn't convertible into useful work to begin with. It doesn't "dissipate" in that it is inevitable that it will flow out of the system into the "cold sink". I understand "dissipation" as entropy producion inside the system, not across its boundaries. In that sense, x - Tcold/Thot does dissipate, and 1 - x is converted into work.
Um, not exactly.

x flows into the cold sink.  Of this, Tcold/Thot flows into the cold sink inevitably, and the rest (x - Tcold/Thot) as a result of not being captured in the bulk. That is definitely wasted.

Now, the remaining 1 - x can either be dissipated in the bulk or captured as "useful work".

Back in the ecological analogy, 1 - x is made up of the energy dissipated by the weather system, and the energy used by the biosphere, of which we're taking an ever large share.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Apr 9th, 2008 at 06:23:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The minimal portion Tcold/Thot does flow into the cold sink, as you say, so it is reasonable to see it as necessary dissipation. After all, "we" have the option of not using the high quality energy, and let it flow for later better "use" (by anyone).

I am inclined to see now that some local waste is inevitable. To sort the mess, even a colder sink would be needed (say, the outer space). What does it imply for global warming by the greenhouse effect? Are we not letting infrared photons (as "waste" from high energy Sun photons) to escape the earth, and so we have to suffer "unexportable" entropy increase throughout all planet's systems?

by das monde on Thu Apr 10th, 2008 at 03:11:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It is not dissipation. It is the fraction of the energy flow that cannot be recovered even in principle. That's why 1 - Tcold/Thot is the theoretical efficiency of an ideal heat engine (again, Carnot). You cannot exceed that limit, even if you try. It's The Law (2nd of Thermodynamics).

The fraction 1 - Tcold/Thot is the "high-quality energy" that we can let dissipate, be captured by the ecosphere, or use ourselves.

Some local waste is inevitable, but that's more in the nature of an engineering problem if you like. There's no reason in principle why very close to 100% of 1 - Tcold/Thot cannot be tapped. That's what a Type-1 civilisation does.

As for lowering the cold temperature, if we decided to run large industrial facilities in space they could run at low temperatures and reduce the Tcold. Note that the Earth is warmer than it would be if it had no atmosphere: we already have a substantial greenhouse effect making the Earth habitable and keeping Tcold relatively high.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Apr 10th, 2008 at 03:19:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]
My main focus is not whether energy is used most effectively, but how much 'waste' has to be dumped locally. In many texts on complex systems, including on self-organized criticality, I read that dissipation waste is a characteristic feature of complex systems.  So I wonder, how necessary is this feature.

What do you mean with "Some local waste is inevitable..."? Do you mean here that the minimal portion Tcold/Twarm of energy will go to 'warm' the cold sink? That in principle reduces its quality other things being neutral, however minutely, right? Or do you mean that ideally we could actually have no waste, in whatever sense?  

by das monde on Thu Apr 10th, 2008 at 04:36:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The "cold sink" is outside the system. What flows into it is not local and it (at least the Tc/Th bit) is also IMHO not waste since the 2nd law of thermodynamic says it is impossible to capture it. If it is impossible to capture it, not capturing it is not wasteful.

It is the part that could be captured but isn't that is wasted (i.e., if more than  Tc/Th flows out to the cold sink, the excess can properly be described as wasted - some of this waste will indeed occur because of local dissipation). The part that is not wasted may or may not be exploited "usefully".

My main focus is not whether energy is used most effectively, but how much 'waste' has to be dumped locally. In many texts on complex systems, including on self-organized criticality, I read that dissipation waste is a characteristic feature of complex systems.  So I wonder, how necessary is this feature.
When people talk about "dissipation" in this context what they mean is that the local dynamics does not conserve energy. There is an external energy input and energy gets "dissipated" out of the system. This is necessary for complex systems because complex systems, like I said at the top, require an external energy flow to feed off.

Once again, my philosophy here is that the spontaneous arrangement of a stationary flow does no work and dissipates all the energy that could usefully be captured as work. Self-organisation of the complex system arises when the flow is fast enough as to trigger a period-doubling cascade (the stationary flow becomes unstable at the point of the first bifurcation). Then some of the energy is used to drive the (quasi)periodic limit cycle (self-organisation), that is, to do work against local dissipation (inside the system) and less flows out directly.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Apr 10th, 2008 at 05:35:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Display:
Login
. Make a new account
. Reset password
Recommended Diaries
The Purpose of Education
by rdf - Nov 20
27 comments

In Defense of the Electoral College
by danps - Nov 22
10 comments

LQD: NATO as 'convenient threat' for Russia
by marco - Nov 21
30 comments

Computational simulations in science
by tiagoantao - Nov 20
20 comments

jitter noise rumble
by emilmoller - Nov 19
18 comments

LQD: The real orgasmic Puritans
by Ted Welch - Nov 20
36 comments

The Puritan Edge
by rg - Nov 20
122 comments

Early Friday Photography Blog No. 62
by LEP - Nov 20
58 comments

Debates
Campaigns
Occasional Series