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Gay bashing is "free" for the majority of people. If you're straight, you don't surrender anything that you consider valuable if you renounce gay love. Now, if you were to renounce straight love instead, or just love, period, you would be giving up something most people enjoy. So it's a cheap way to be holier than thou for the majority of the Church. It is also a cheap and easy way to create an enemy that you are sure you can beat.

- Jake

If you only spend 20 minutes of the rest of your life on economics, go spend them here.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Tue Apr 8th, 2008 at 09:42:27 AM EST
Yep - but puritanism effected everyone - even married people were supposed to abstain in certain cases or at certain times.  I accept the notion that gays are/were an easy minority target - but so are many others and to me that fact alone doesn't explain the specificity and vehemence of homophobia particularly in bible belt USA and many third world countries.

"It's a mystery to me - the game commences, For the usual fee - plus expenses, Confidential information - it's in my diary..."
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot dotty communists) on Tue Apr 8th, 2008 at 09:54:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It's possible that it's simply a historical coincidence. The luck of the draw, if you will.

There seems to be little rational reason for the fundagelicals to latch onto creationism either - or at least not in preference to relativity-denial, geo-centrism, etc., etc. It's simply biology's bad luck that evolution became the symbol of the scientific, technological, cultural and ethical advances during the 19th century that the fundagelicals so abhor.

Similarly, homosexuality may have simply been targeted because it was associated with one of the sides in some forgotten church schism about something else entirely. Or as a result of a particularly deranged pope, cardinal or inquisitor. Or something else lost to the mists of time and history.

That being said, however, I think that there is something to the idea put forward elsewhere in this thread that it may have to do with the fact that the Church decided that outbreeding the competition would be desirable. This also fits with the doctrine that sex for pleasure is Bad and Sinful, even to the extent that it justifies (to the Church's mind, if to no-one else's) the sanctioning of HIV-AIDS denial and lying about condoms.

- Jake

If you only spend 20 minutes of the rest of your life on economics, go spend them here.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Tue Apr 8th, 2008 at 10:18:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The sex-is-bad line is traceable back to one of the cults that forms the basis for Christianity, if I remember rightly. St Paul and his little mad people.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Apr 8th, 2008 at 10:37:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]
homosexuality may have simply been targeted because it was associated with one of the sides in some forgotten church schism

Yes. Bogumils, Cathars. (Who may have only been the biggest and most lasting in multiple waves of schism/anti-homosexual-campaigns).

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Tue Apr 8th, 2008 at 11:42:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Focusing on the Bible Belt USA not to pick on them, but just because "many third world countries" is just too big a generalisation for me this afternoon, I'm happy to think about specific examples if there are ones you think are particularly interesting.

Anyway, if we focus on the Bible Belt for a moment, where's the "specificity" of homophobia. There's a pretty vehement history, only 40 or so years in the past, of picking on other minorities too.

And we can see there clear historical reasons (including the size of the prominent racial minorities and external pressures for change) that explain why "gay right" hasn't progressed there as "quickly" as for some other minorities.

One key issue however is that there's a string of homophobic lines through the Bible that maybe made it easier (back in the 14th century) to start a movement using gays as a target group:

http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_bibh.htm
http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_bibh3.htm
http://www.religioustolerance.org/hombiblnt.htm

I would suggest that there are fewer lines that are as easily used to justify racial intolerance, largely because:

The "Middle East" area, sat between Africa and Europe was an area where people of many skin tones lived and mixed. There wasn't the homogeneity to promote a full on "pick on those people who look different" ideology.

Of course the "Dutch Reform Church" did construct a Biblical case for apartheid, but that came quite a bit later on. I'd argue that is possibly because it's much harder work.

Of course, since we're speculating, I've also read that the crusade against homosexuals started in the medieval era from political roots, because a few politically powerful church orders had a lot of gay members and those who opposed them found this a handy way to attack them. But that was in a book that has long since passed from my possession, so I can't quote anything useful.

by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Tue Apr 8th, 2008 at 10:33:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Nobody read the bible in 14th C, did they?
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Apr 8th, 2008 at 10:37:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, true.

But for whatever reason, the records we have of populist preachers stirring up the masses largely seem to include genuine quotes from the Bible.

Your 14th C parish priest could actually make up anything most of the time, because the unwashed weren't allowed near the "source material."

But, in the end, if we're talking about a movement as widespread as Frank is suggesting, then it had to draw legitimacy from somewhere, and people's mindspace was "The Bible" to a large extent, as far as we know about those times.

by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Tue Apr 8th, 2008 at 10:41:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Metatone:
Your 14th C parish priest could actually make up anything most of the time, because the unwashed weren't allowed near the "source material."
Why do you think the Second Vatican Council was so revolutionary? For the first time in centuries the masses, unwashed or otherwise, could actually understand what the priest was saying.

Also, for a long time even a lot of clergymen were illiterate in latin and the introduction of the missal made it unnecessary even for priests to read the bible.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Apr 21st, 2008 at 05:22:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]
afaik, the Middle East was pretty tolerant of gays until the colonial west , principally Britain, stuck their noses into it.

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Tue Apr 8th, 2008 at 10:58:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That and the crazy wahabist crowd. Though the Iranians don't like it much either, so I guess some of the Shia have  a problem with it.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Apr 8th, 2008 at 11:01:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The wahabis were of little consequence till post-WWII. But the distaste for homosexuality and gender transgression generally was in full force by the end of the 19th C.

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Tue Apr 8th, 2008 at 11:12:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
There is more support for slavery in the bible than there is criticism of homosexuality.  The references to Sodom are understood by scholars to refer to the sin of inhospitality, not homosexuality as commonly understood. Even St. Paul is thought to have been referring to the sin of extra-marital affairs rather than homosexuality per se. Given that homosexuality was exalted in Greek culture, and a matter of complete indifference to the Romans, it is striking there is no explicit New Testament discussion o the subject one way or the other.  Celibacy became a requirement for the Priesthood as im many ascetic traditions, and it is understandble that the frustrated clerics would rail at licentiousness in general.  But specific condemnation of homosexuality seems to have arisen only in the middle ages - perhaps because of the prominence of gays in celibate orders and general ant--clerical resentments directed at the wealth of the Church?  Homophobia having its roots in anti-clericalism would be an interesting twist...

"It's a mystery to me - the game commences, For the usual fee - plus expenses, Confidential information - it's in my diary..."
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot dotty communists) on Tue Apr 8th, 2008 at 12:17:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The references to Sodom are understood by scholars to refer to the sin of inhospitality, not homosexuality as commonly understood.

And threatened rape.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Wed Apr 9th, 2008 at 04:11:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Are you suggesting that racial intolerance in the "bible belt" has something to do with the lack of a variety of skin color vs. the situation in the Middle East?  I suspect not, but it could be taken that way.

More to the point, it seems to me that a lot is being made of what could be a relatively few cases of gay marriage overseen by the "Church" during a very long time period and over quite a large geographical area.  Yet, we seem to ignore, more or less, the clear statement that a union between persons of the same sex was illegal (by the Church?) from the time of the Roman Empire. Maybe the few documented cases were truly just aberrations of a particular time and place. Of course this is just my supposition.

I can swear there ain't no heaven but I pray there ain't no hell. _ Blood Sweat & Tears

by Gringo (stargazing camel at aoldotcom) on Mon Apr 21st, 2008 at 08:31:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

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