European Tribune

One of the lies is the idea that the medieval church was very anything. There has been a wide variation in practise and tolerance across different places and times for the last two thousand years. I'm guessing here, but I would think that if you asked the Pope he'd tell you that such things where always contrary to central church teaching. It amuses me that the "true" beliefs of Catholicism are only held by a very small number of super-educated specialists: widely held folk practices and beliefs are routinely dumped for being non-official.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Apr 8th, 2008 at 08:50:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The Catholic Church is built on hypocrisy - both of the common believer and the top clergy.

The common believer professes in church ceremonies to uphold the catechism and follow the Church in everything. Then goes on to practise all sorts of quasi or genuinely pagan customs and beliefs, cheat on his wife, steal from the poor, and so on. The top clergy does all that, plus uses some popular pagan practices/beliefs to keep in connection with (and keep influence over) the masses, and keeps others handy if some individuals or groups are selected for retorsions.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Tue Apr 8th, 2008 at 09:06:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]
In the era before mass communications - when many people didn't travel more than a few miles from their birthplace - it is easy to understand how "the Church" could have evolved in many different ways in many different places.  It would have been relatively difficult to exert centralised control.  However what I find interesting about this gay rite story is that it demonstrates that the practice was widespread throughout the church, and also that the change to attitudes to homosexuality was widespread throughout Europe - and not limited to any one culture or locale.  So what drove the change?  Jews were always good for the scapegoat role.  Why gays?

"It's a mystery to me - the game commences, For the usual fee - plus expenses, Confidential information - it's in my diary..."
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot dotty communists) on Tue Apr 8th, 2008 at 09:18:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I remember a particularly perplexing form of racism practised by people who got along perfectly well with colleagues and neighbours of a different ethnic origin.

They Should All Be Sent Back Where They Came From.  Except for the people these armchair racists actually knew, who "weren't like all the others."

My point is that localised acceptance of homosexuality within a small community-where the couple would be someone's sisters, brothers, cousins, in-laws-doesn't necessarily prove acceptance of homosexuality per se.

The Black Death ended the manor system, where the serfs were effectively the property of their lord and couldn't travel without his permission.

Maybe the displacement/mobility of the population broke the personal ties that had been the reason for tolerance in the face of anti-gay propaganda?

by Sassafras on Tue Apr 22nd, 2008 at 03:02:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The Black Death ended the manor system, where the serfs were effectively the property of their lord and couldn't travel without his permission.

Only in part of Europe.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Tue Apr 22nd, 2008 at 06:33:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I just read a (French) paper about the sociological changes in the middle ages. Two important switches were happening : the move from a clan structured society, where people recognise their allegiance to a larger pseudo-familial group, to a core-family structure ; and the beginnings of spatial allegiance.

In the year 1000, one would be a serf of such noble person, whereas by 1400, one would be a serf/freeman of this village, who happened to be ruled by a certain lord.

Also, the move from a clans-based society to a core-family based society reinforced the sanctity of marriage, which was less used as a means of alliance between families, and thus became more strongly normalised : only clerics remained celibate ; lay people remaining celibate became suspected of heresy. This reinforcement of the sanctity of marriage was actively promoted by the church ; it goes hand in hand with its involvement in the social norms of sexuality.

Auferre, trucidare, rapere, falsis nominibus imperium; atque, ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant.

by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Wed Apr 23rd, 2008 at 04:56:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]
See my comment below that summarises the development of the Roman Church's attitudes to these questions.

When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Wed Apr 23rd, 2008 at 08:07:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Colman:
I'm guessing here, but I would think that if you asked the Pope he'd tell you that such things where always contrary to central church teaching

Welll that would be a bit difficult to argue if you quote the

At St John Lateran in Rome (traditionally the Pope's parish Church) in 1578 as many as 13 couples were "married" at Mass with the apparent co-operation of the local clergy, "taking Communion together, using the same nuptial Scripture, after which they slept and ate together", according to a contemporary report.
Bit from the diary.

Life should consist in at least fifty percent pure waste of time, and the rest doing what you please.
by ceebs (bunchofwankers (at) gmail (dot) com) on Tue Apr 8th, 2008 at 11:37:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]
apparent co-operation

See?
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Apr 8th, 2008 at 11:51:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]

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