European Tribune

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Any language one chooses excludes those who don't understand it. Multiple languages would mean that more people get excluded. Given that English is by far the most common foreign language known in Europe it is the logical choice for a multinational site.  

To those who are reluctant to comment because they're worried about making lots of mistakes - don't worry, just do it. This isn't a language class, nobody is grading you on your grammatical mistakes. Hell, some of us native English speakers can get pretty careless as well (always somewhat sheepish at the fact that a lot of the non-native English speakers tend to be more polished than I am). As far as more involved diaries go, one idea might be to offer translation services. I'm perfectly happy to translate anything from Polish, French or German. And I'm far from the only one here with language skills.

If we do try multilingual stuff it might be worth trying to figure out which languages make sense - presumably only the major ones (Spanish, French, German, Italian). How many lurkers are there who are native speakers in those languages but don't feel comfortable commenting in English? How many people can read those languages?

by MarekNYC on Tue May 13th, 2008 at 12:22:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I agree you.

When Procrustes looks after you, you're sure to fit in.
by PerCLupi on Tue May 13th, 2008 at 01:30:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]
If we do try multilingual stuff it might be worth trying to figure out which languages make sense - presumably only the major ones (Spanish, French, German, Italian). How many lurkers are there who are native speakers in those languages but don't feel comfortable commenting in English? How many people can read those languages?
I always say the same thing: refer to the Special Eurobarometer 243 on Europeans and their Languages [PDF] for self-assessed language fluency in the European Union (and neighbourhood: it includes Turkey and Croatia)

The previous chart is from the full report, while the following one is from the summary [PDF]:


When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue May 13th, 2008 at 02:18:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]
thanks. It's nice to see foreign languages are going up. I'm a bit surprised at the native level stats - (there are more native Italian speakers than native French speakers?) and the fact that apparently several million Europeans speak Polish as a foreign language?!. Anyways, that confirms my intuition about English as by far the most commonly known language. Furthermore, only German and French seem to have significant numbers of non-native speakers.
by MarekNYC on Tue May 13th, 2008 at 02:34:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
One possible reason might be that more people list Italian and some other language as their mother tongue, while French-speakers are less likely, for some reason, to do so.

Yes, you can list multiple languages as you mother tongue. 94 % of the Irish list English as their mother tongue, while 11 % list Irish...

Did any of you know that 9% of the population of Luxembourg have Portuguese as their mother tongue? Or that the Luxembourgers are the only country where they think that learning French is more important than learning English?

by gk (g k quattro due due sette "at" gmail.com) on Tue May 13th, 2008 at 05:44:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Maybe because French is actually an official language in Luxembourg...

Also, for the "more Italian than French mother tongue", I'd say maybe the more numerous immigrants in France than in Italy may not have French as mother tongue...

Auferre, trucidare, rapere, falsis nominibus imperium; atque, ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant.

by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Tue May 13th, 2008 at 06:41:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It's 93% in France vs. 95% in Italy, so the immigrants in France may be balanced by the nonimmigrant linguistic minorities in Italy.

But another explanation is simply that the conclusion is false. It's 13% vs. 12%, and the margin of error is around 2%...

by gk (g k quattro due due sette "at" gmail.com) on Wed May 14th, 2008 at 03:43:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Even without the error margin, they seem to forget that 38% of Belgians name French as first language. That's about 4 million people.

When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Wed May 14th, 2008 at 08:56:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]
So assuming that they know how to do arithmetic, that means there a lot of Italians scattered throughout Europe. This could be the case: in previous generations, a lot of Italians moved to Germany for work, and maybe this happened in other countries as well. Unfortunately, this report doesn't have statistics for this.

By the way, another reason not to take the figures on Italian vs. French too seriously is that the study does not include Switzerland...

by gk (g k quattro due due sette "at" gmail.com) on Thu May 15th, 2008 at 02:59:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Belgium and the Netherlands also took in a large number of immigrant workers in the 1950's and 60's. Maybe that's the reason Italy was one of the 6 founding members of the EEC.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu May 15th, 2008 at 03:18:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Actually, understanding dawns when you look at p70 of the main report pdf. There you have the population size they were using as a basis for the percentages.

The survey was run on 15+ population. Their numbers for that group are 49m in Italy, 44m in France, 8.6 m in Belgium.

  • 49m x 95% = 46.6m
  • (44m x 93%) + (8.6m x 38%) = 44.3m

Other numbers (p141) are:

  • Italian-speakers 2% in France, 2% in Belgium, 1% in Spain, 1% in Luxembourg
  • French-speakers 6% in Luxembourg, 1% in Cyprus (!)


When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu May 15th, 2008 at 05:52:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]

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