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by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Sun May 18th, 2008 at 11:17:37 PM EST
Basque demonstrators call for an end to violence - International Herald Tribune

MADRID: Basques held a somber ceremony Sunday to commemorate the lives of people killed in attacks by the separatist group ETA and to call for an end to the violence that has plagued Spain for four decades.

Hundreds of Basque politicians, survivors and victims' relatives joined together for the ceremony in San Sebastian, a northern resort city.

"Only one reason explains our commitment, the sense of why we must carry on, hang on and withstand so much pain," said Lorencio Sainz, a police officer who was seriously wounded in an ETA bombing in 1984. "It is for liberty and the rights of citizens."

Two artists painted a canvas at the foot of a stage during the ceremony at the city's Kursaal theater where the event took place. The painting showed two people in an embrace, to symbolize peace, with a Basque landscape in the background. The canvas was illuminated at the end of the commemoration.

by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Sun May 18th, 2008 at 11:19:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]
BBC NEWS | Europe | Teachers throng Paris over cuts

At least 20,000 people have marched through central Paris protesting against the French government's plans to cut jobs in the education sector.

The protestors are also unhappy about President Nicolas Sarkozy's plans to force schools to stay open in the event of strike action.

Mr Sarkozy was elected a year ago on a platform of reforms, but many of them have provoked stiff opposition.

Separately, fishermen angered by rising fuel costs blockaded La Rochelle port.

A cordon of 90 fishing boats cut off access to the commercial harbour La Pallice on France's Atlantic coast for a fourth day running.

by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Sun May 18th, 2008 at 11:20:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]
sigh...when are voters going to get that 'reforms' always means misery for downsized workers?

reforms are for babies, we need top-to-bottom transformation, and who's going to run for votes on that, till all other options are history?

"These days, there's nothing more ridiculous than the truth." Leonard Pitts Jr

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Mon May 19th, 2008 at 11:32:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Tony Blair's expenses shredded - Times Online

Some of Tony Blair's expenses claims, which the High Court last week ruled should be disclosed to the public, have been shredded. The documents, itemising Blair's claims for household expenses during a year of his premiership, were destroyed in the midst of a legal battle over whether they should be published. All MPs' expenses are funded by taxpayers.

It is a criminal offence to destroy documents to prevent their disclosure under freedom of information (FOI) laws, but Westminster officials say they were unaware that the files were the subject of a legal challenge. They insist they were destroyed by mistake.

All MPs are entitled to claim for home renovations, furnishings, domestic appliances and groceries with a tariff based on prices at John Lewis, the department store. MPs have for years refused to disclose details of their expenses, which average £136,000, more than twice their salaries.

This position became increasingly untenable with the arrival of FOI laws in January 2005. Since then a number of media organisations, including The Sunday Times, have been conducting a legal batttle for full disclosure of MPs' housing allowance, currently worth a maximum of £23,083.

[Murdoch Alert]
by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Sun May 18th, 2008 at 11:23:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
and unsurprising.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Mon May 19th, 2008 at 03:58:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Hey, please cut the man some slack.  He's got faith, Faith, enough even to teach it.  And despite protests in Europe, he'd still make a great Chief Archeron of the Narg Galaxy.

Skennah Kowa
by Crazy Horse on Mon May 19th, 2008 at 04:13:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Don't worry, he's got Cherie's memoirs hanging round his neck. That is punishment enough.

Those whom the gods wish to destroy they first make mad. It's probably the first memoir I might actually buy (when it is in remainder stacks) cos it totally destroys the pair of them.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Mon May 19th, 2008 at 06:02:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The reviews that have come out make the book sound like Bridget Jones: the edge of reason.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon May 19th, 2008 at 06:08:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Beyond the Edge of Reason more like.

Reviewers seem to be aghast at Cherie's determination, not just to confirm, but exceed our worst opinions of her

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Mon May 19th, 2008 at 06:52:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Except that Bridget Jones was at least mildly attractive and not completely out to lunch.

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?
by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Mon May 19th, 2008 at 07:50:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Royal seeks second chance in battle to depose Sarkozy - Europe, News - The Independent

The struggle to become the Next Big Thing on the French left wing exploded into open warfare at the weekend as the defeated presidential candidate Ségolène Royal announced a bid to become the First Secretary, or leader, of the Socialist Party.

On Thursday, the Paris Mayor Bertrand Delanoë, who is likely to be her main rival, will publish a book called De l'Audace! (Courage!), setting out his political philosophy and ambitions. With six months to go before the Socialists choose their new leader at a conference in Reims, the pair have, in effect, joined battle for the right to be both the party chief and the candidate-elect for the presidential elections in 2012.

Mme Royal, 54, has been bounced into an early declaration by the rising popularity of the gruff, moderate, competent mayor. Although his open homosexuality is regarded as a serious handicap by some political analysts, M. Delanoe, 57, is running far ahead of Mme Royal in recent national opinion polls.

by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Sun May 18th, 2008 at 11:26:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
De l'Audace! doesn't mean courage but daring. One of those hackneyed concepts the French like to wave around, like panache.

his open homosexuality is regarded as a serious handicap by some political analysts

I don't know which political analysts say this. Delanoë has just been reelected mayor of Paris, and there's no sign his sexual orientation has any determining effect on people's perception of him.

When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Mon May 19th, 2008 at 02:08:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]
British political analysts writing for The Independent, of course.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon May 19th, 2008 at 03:00:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Seems fair to say that it's Delanoe's to lose at this point.  Any corruption stories about him?  I've never heard of a mayor of paris who wasn't on the take.
by paving on Mon May 19th, 2008 at 02:05:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The fact that he is only the third mayor of Paris in living memory helps that...

Auferre, trucidare, rapere, falsis nominibus imperium; atque, ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant.
by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Tue May 20th, 2008 at 03:32:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Bosses threaten Dutch plan to cap 'fat cat' pay - Europe, News - The Independent

The Dutch government has provoked uproar among the country's business leaders by proposing laws to curb large bonuses and golden handshakes for company bosses.

The Finance minister Wouter Bos launched the "fat cat" crackdown following a series of recent scandals involving "unjustifiable" payouts to prominent business figures. However despite government support, Mr Bos's proposals are under attack from Dutch blue-chips such as Philips, Shell and Unilever, whose chairmen argue they will damage Holland's international competitiveness and drive away corporate talent. "It's something everyone in Europe is concerned about, especially now the economic downturn is starting to bite," said Mr Bos. "You can't expect employees to tighten their belts while those at the top are being paid ever-bigger bonuses, which are often not even linked to their performance. Public support for entrepreneurs will plummet if this continues."

Mr Bos, who leads the Dutch Labour Party (PvdA), has put forward new laws that would slap taxes on companies for over-rewarding bosses. Under the proposed legislation, which is currently making its way through parliament, companies would have to pay a 30 percent tax on severance packages, or "golden parachutes", of more than €500,000 (£398,000), paid to executives when they leave a company. In addition, an extra tax would be levied in cases when company pensions are paid out to executives earning more than €500,000.

by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Sun May 18th, 2008 at 11:27:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
here is not that the bosses complain (it is, after all, their paychecks on the table), nor that their complaints are reported, it is that they are taken seriously and not treated with the same contempt as protests by teachers or factory workers against wage freezes or job cuts.

And the double standard is annoying as hell - and shows on whose side the media is.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Mon May 19th, 2008 at 04:02:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The media knows who butters the bread, and it ain't the teachers.

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Mon May 19th, 2008 at 06:04:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Is there nobody willing and capable of doing the job for only $1 million/per?
by paving on Mon May 19th, 2008 at 02:11:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I agree with this move and think it would have a better chance of sticking if they could build a concensus amongst reasonable countries to enact very similar laws and penalize companies that attempt to evade their responsibilities with offshore tax arrangments.

Isn't Holland where U2 have parked their money for tax reasons ? Shouldn't they clean that up while they're at it ?

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Mon May 19th, 2008 at 06:06:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]

As I said before:
As I understand it, the members of U2 are personally either resident in the US or Ireland for taxes.

How come the media can't be trusted to tell the truth unless it's a negative story about someone rich?

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Mon May 19th, 2008 at 06:19:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]
There is a difference between where an individual resides and where their various legal entities pay taxes

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Mon May 19th, 2008 at 06:53:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
We can trust the media to tell a negative story about someone rich?

I must be watching the wrong news channels.

Life should consist in at least fifty percent pure waste of time, and the rest doing what you please.

by ceebs (bunchofwankers (at) gmail (dot) com) on Mon May 19th, 2008 at 06:57:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Rubbish Crisis Worsens in Naples as Fire Crews Attacked | Europe | Deutsche Welle | 18.05.2008
Despite emergency measures to resolve the rubbish crisis in the southern Italian city of Naples, the situation worsened Saturday, May 16, with more than 100 fires set to the mountains of garbage.

Angry city residents set the fires overnight, which the overburdened fire-fighters struggled to extinguish.

 

A television team recorded stones being thrown at one fire crew as it attempted to put out a fire in the suburb of Barra.

 

"They are also attacking us because of the mountains of rubbish in the streets," one fireman said. "It's not the first time they have tried to attack us, and I fear that it will also not be the last."

 

Rising temperatures have exacerbated the problem of the stinking mounds of trash, which contain up to 5,000 tons of material.

 

by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Sun May 18th, 2008 at 11:28:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]
if it's true 'the cavalier' engineered this to oust prodi's centre-left, then it might be that the dogs that bit one direction might well see advantage in biting the other.

it's like the mafia are daring the government.

post-apocalypse, writ still small.

whoever can sort this out will get a lot of respect, but is silvio man enough?

tune in wednesday, when he goes down there, to face the music.

no mandolins...

the difference in attitude to garbage just 6 hours drive away is striking.

napoli has so much heart as a city...it breaks mine to see her 'ridotta male' like this.

"These days, there's nothing more ridiculous than the truth." Leonard Pitts Jr

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Mon May 19th, 2008 at 02:00:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Long Road Ahead for Pro-European Serbs | Europe | Deutsche Welle | 18.05.2008
While the latest parliamentary elections gave a big boost to pro-European parties, Serbia's fragmented politics mean the vote could still produce a nationalist, anti-Western government.

Serbia hosts the Eurovision Song Contest next week and its entry, an ethno-tinged love song, is considered one of the favorites to win. If only Serbia's path to Europe were that simple for those who want it.

 

An anti-Western government would mean a setback for the European Union, which invested considerable effort in influencing Sunday's election and urged the next government to pursue "a clear European agenda."

 

As political leaders began coalition talks Monday, the stakes for regional stability, the EU and ordinary Serbs were high. For Serbia's neighbors, including newly seceded Kosovo, an ultra-nationalist leadership in Belgrade would likely spell a new rush of tension.

by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Sun May 18th, 2008 at 11:28:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
BBC NEWS | Science/Nature | 'Effective chemicals may be lost'

Scientists say they are worried about new EU proposals which could drastically restrict the number of pesticides available to farmers.

The registration process is changing and many commonly used chemicals are likely to fall out of use.

It is claimed the replacement regime could lead to reduced yields and further increases in food costs.

But anti-pesticide campaigners say the changes are needed to help protect human health and the environment.

by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Sun May 18th, 2008 at 11:30:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Those who are "for" the pesticides (and who earn their living making them) are scientists. Those who are "against" are campaigners.

That reflects the bias in this article. 90% listening to pesticide producers and ministry officials, a couple of paragraphs for a "campaigner". And, as usual, the obscurantists will be made responsible for lower food production.

Trust the experts, as François in Paris says. It's all too hard for our little heads to understand. Like, we don't know industry-lobby propaganda when we see it.

When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Mon May 19th, 2008 at 02:21:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Trust the experts, as François in Paris says. It's all too hard for our little heads to understand. Like, we don't know industry-lobby propaganda when we see it.

Mmm, no. Not my point. Ever.

If something matters to you, you don't have to trust the experts. But you have to become the expert. Good intentions are no excuse for ignorance.

I wouldn't call the difference between those two positions a nuance.


Facts, selfish little bastards. They don't even care about your feelings.

by Francois in Paris on Mon May 19th, 2008 at 02:56:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It was the point we debated. In which I said your view of ideal government (though I don't disagree with all you said about that) was just not what was happening. What's happening is, among other things, the above:  government-department-backed industry-lobby "scientific" material churned out by a news source as respected as the BBC.

you have to become the expert, fine. But the present mass communications systems only recognize one kind of expert. And the thrust of your argument in that discussion seems to me to give objective support to top-down official expertise, however you qualify it here or back there.

I didn't need to cite you, though, that was unfair.

When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Mon May 19th, 2008 at 04:34:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]
This article in the Scientific American on experts is really enjoyable (via Sully):

Scientists Know Better Than You--Even When They're Wrong

Like Jane Goodall living among the chimps, Collins, a professor at Cardiff University in Wales, has spent 30 years observing physicists who study gravitational wave detection--the search for faint ripples in the fabric of spacetime. He's learned the hard way about the work that goes into acquiring specialized scientific knowledge. In a recent book, Rethinking Expertise, he says that what bridges the gap--and what keeps science working--is something called "interactional expertise". Collins spoke recently with ScientificAmerican.com about his view of expertise; what follows is an edited transcript of that interview.

The title and introduction are slightly misleading, by the way. What Collins is really saying:
The key to the whole thing is whether people have had access to the tacit knowledge of an esoteric area--tacit knowledge is know-how that you can't express in words. The standard example is knowing how to ride a bike. My view as a sociologist is that expertise is located in more or less specialized social groups. If you want to know what counts as secure knowledge in a field like gravitational wave detection, you have to become part of the social group. Being immersed in the discourse of the specialists is the only way to keep up with what is at the cutting edge.

Is this where interactional expertise comes into play?
Interactional expertise is one of the things that broadens the scope of who can contribute. It's a little bit wider than the old "people in the white coats" of the 1950s, but what it's not is everybody. (Within science, lots of people have interactional expertise, because science wouldn't run without it.)

You did experiments to test your theory of expertise. What did you find?
The original version we did was with color-blind people. What we were attempting to demonstrate is something we call the strong interactional hypothesis: If you have deeply immersed yourself in the talk of an esoteric group--but not immersed yourself in any way in the practices of that group--you will be indistinguishable from somebody who has immersed themself [sic] in both the talk and the practice, in a test which just involves talk.


In short, he's talking about becoming an expert.

This cuts deep into some convictions I have about epistemology and philosophy of language. There are no categorical limitations to understanding, and our discourse is rich enough to render any 'foreign' conception.

by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Mon May 19th, 2008 at 08:50:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Expert  (pron : Ex-spurt)
Ex - implies past tense
spurt -  a drip

Experts are people who know more and more about less and less, until they know everything about nothing.


keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Mon May 19th, 2008 at 10:41:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]
What it this? Specialised Knowledge Scorn Week? Experts are essential: the danger is listening to them outside of their fields of expertise.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Mon May 19th, 2008 at 10:46:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It's better to be a dilettante: know nothing about everything and talk like you're an expert.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon May 19th, 2008 at 10:52:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Fucking experts, oppressing us with their detailed knowledge of a specialised area. I hate them.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Mon May 19th, 2008 at 10:56:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Expertise is a positional good.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon May 19th, 2008 at 10:56:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Absolutely, to such an extent that people will seek it out to improve their status among their peers.

That's why I go on beer tours with Helen - it's purely the status boost of hanging out with an expert.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Mon May 19th, 2008 at 10:58:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Now you're being provocative.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon May 19th, 2008 at 11:03:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That means no one is allowed be pissed off at me, doesn't it?
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Mon May 19th, 2008 at 11:04:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
No one ever is.

When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Mon May 19th, 2008 at 11:12:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Oh excellent. I'll refer them to you in future then.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Mon May 19th, 2008 at 11:14:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]
No, the danger is believing everything they say related to their fields of expertise simply because they are acknowledged as an experts.  The danger is in assuming "expert" = "objective."

"This is nothing compared to how Putin rigged Eurovision."
by poemless on Mon May 19th, 2008 at 10:58:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That too. Though sometimes you need expertise to challenge experts usefully.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Mon May 19th, 2008 at 10:59:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Take Jerome, banker and PhD economist, challenging the economic conventional wisdom.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon May 19th, 2008 at 11:04:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Nanne offers useful meditation in his comment above.

When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Mon May 19th, 2008 at 11:11:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The danger is the same as with "economists", pundits, and business journalists: not that they talk outside their fields, but that what they have to say within them is bought and sold like turnips.

When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Mon May 19th, 2008 at 11:07:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Who are generally not experts, in point of fact. They're the guys who have hung around experts but never actually developed any expertise. Talk the talk, couldn't even find the path to walk on.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Mon May 19th, 2008 at 11:08:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]
So the guy from SciAm got it wrong, you can actually tell the difference between an expert and a fake if you're an expert?

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon May 19th, 2008 at 11:10:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]
No, he said that as long as you keep away from doing the real thing you can't necessarily tell the difference. No maths questions, remember?
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Mon May 19th, 2008 at 11:13:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Expertise should be measured by effectiveness, not by media noise.

And I'd like a pink pony.

Meanwhile in the real world, expertise is measured almost exclusively by media noise - at the big media scale, and also at the small science scale, where you can talk crap and still be published in peer reviewed papers, and you can have some original ideas which never make it past peer review.

So what is an expert, exactly? And how can you tell the difference (if you're not a chicken)?

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Mon May 19th, 2008 at 11:18:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Pink's very hard to get stains out of you know.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Mon May 19th, 2008 at 11:34:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Is that an expert comment, a dilettante comment, or a think tank comment?
by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Mon May 19th, 2008 at 02:08:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I think it's a quote from Readers Letters in the Home Decor weekly. An entirely new category, I believe?

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Mon May 19th, 2008 at 02:27:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Does that mean they're dilettantes?

I think I'm confused about who I'm supposed to be scorning.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Mon May 19th, 2008 at 11:11:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]
They're the ones the mass media tout as experts, they're the ones that get into the official agencies and government positions, and that's what matters to me. The rest is scholastics.

When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Mon May 19th, 2008 at 11:14:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Trust the experts, as François in Paris says. It's all too hard for our little heads to understand.

François has posted some of the most detailed and informative comments here, which have to a large extent authorised him to make the comments he makes about trusting knowledgeable experts, so this is a cheap shot.

Not that your point about the propaganda in the above article is incorrect, just that your shot at François is uncalled for.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Mon May 19th, 2008 at 04:06:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
As I have just said in a comment before reading this.

When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Mon May 19th, 2008 at 04:42:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]
BBC NEWS | Business | ECB head: Credit crunch 'ongoing'

Jean-Claude Trichet said we were seeing "an ongoing, very serious market correction," during an interview with the BBC business editor Robert Peston.

He warned that if central banks were tempted to cut interest rates now, more serious problems could follow.

He compared recent rises in energy and food prices to the 1970s oil shock.

Mr Trichet said the failure of most European economies to digest tighter monetary policy in the 1970s caused higher wages that undermined the region's ability to compete. The net result was mass unemployment.

Well I guess that settles it then.  Europe Is So Doomed.

The blurker formerly known as ignorant bystander.

by b--- (budr at hughes net) on Mon May 19th, 2008 at 06:49:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]

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