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My ideal on economic issues could be defined as center-left c. 1960's and 1970's Germany or mainstream liberal American in the same era. That means there's a lot less distance to go in the EU than in the US. I'd also disagree that Obama is on the far right by European standards. It's difficult to achieve change, whether you're right or left. That means that the actual programs put out by right wing politicians in the EU are going to appear pretty left wing by US standards, but if you look at what the grass roots activists say before they start climbing the political ladder it's pretty clear that the long term aim among the bulk of the European right is very neo-liberal, while among the American left it's pretty social-democratic.

They then shift to the right - you've got a somewhat more right wing electorate, you have the fricking neo-lib bias in the media, and people are just afraid of radical change. Remember the reaction to the Clinton health care plan. He was elected with universal health care with a strong majority approving of that idea. However, the vast majority of voters already have insurance, and the same fear of losing it or seeing it get worse that was part of the support for UHC could also be exploited by the scaremongers.  And then there are the inevitable disruptions caused by change which grow with its degree. (E.g. I'd like to see the minimum wage at least double what it is now, but I don't think raising it to that level overnight would be a good idea.)  

What we need in this country is a sustained period of Democratic hegemony along with shifting the  party somewhat to the left; a difficult task which will  entail patience and plenty of frustration along the way. But I refuse to believe it's impossible, if I did I'd just try to tune out news and politics altogether. That or radicalism - but given that political freedom trumps economic justice that's going from bad to worse.  

by MarekNYC on Fri May 16th, 2008 at 04:03:13 AM EST
My observation of Obama as still right wing has several reasons.
  • in the beginning of his campaign he was attacking Clinton on her mandated health care, despite economists like Paul Krugman clearly say a mandate is necessary.
  • he has not even spoken about any welfare system, which lack is in my opinion one of the reasons for the high number of people in prison in the US.
  • he has spoken about plans to attack the housing crisis. High house prices help the banks and those who already own a house. It is not at all helpful for all others. The left thing to do about the housing crisis is clearly nothing.
  • He has promised no income tax increase for people earning less than 200,000 $, that's 97% of the population. How would he like to finance any real help for the weakest in the society, given that he has to increase the taxes for the rich alone to make the fiscal deficit sustainable?

You say the right wing wants more and more. That's outdated AFAIK. At least in Germany conservatives (like me) are mostly talking about conservation of the status quo=conservation, not change=progression. There are some issues, where conservatives want change, mainly targeting at families. I guess in the US this would count as left policy. Have you seen the CSU tax proposal Jerome had an diary about the WSJ reaction? The people who would getting the highest benefit from it proportional to their income would have been people with an income around 50k Euro a year.

Der Amerikaner ist die Orchidee unter den Menschen
Volker Pispers
by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Fri May 16th, 2008 at 08:34:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]
If you're going to suggest that the neo-libs are the natural enemies of the conservatives, you may have a point.

The neo-libs are the natural enemies of everyone. It's unfortunate that they've hidden themselves so well that more people don't realise this.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Fri May 16th, 2008 at 09:18:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]
He was attacking Clinton on her mandated health care because her "plan" basically consisted of passing a law saying that everyone must buy insurance. It wasn't universal health care, it was highway robbery. His statements on the housing crisis that I remember were mostly about mortgage relief; helping people who'd been trapped into predatory mortgages. Since this group has a hefty proportion of poor blacks... As for the last point... What exactly is the problem here? He's proposing to increase taxes on the rich, who currently pay less than anyone else.
by Egarwaen on Fri May 16th, 2008 at 12:14:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]
So the right answer to Clinton would have been extending the proposal, not come up with something which will still leave a lot of people uninsured.

And for the last point. The problem is, that it will not be enough to increase taxes only for the very rich, if he wants to bring real change. He won't be that transformative, that the US society changes in such a way, that it would become difficult for his successor to revert. He won't bring enough change, that the people can see that a social state works.

Der Amerikaner ist die Orchidee unter den Menschen
Volker Pispers

by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Fri May 16th, 2008 at 12:31:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You are correct to assert that progressive, or inclusive if you like this term better, policies cannot be pursued without a progressive tax structure which will cause large sections of the middle class to pay their fair share as well.

This being said, you can pretty well arguably wipe out the US federal budget deficit by taxing the top 1% at the same levels they were taxed at under the Nixon admnistration. And if you tax them at Eisenhower levels, you'll have enough to pay for healthcare reform.

Can't speak to income distributions or tax and revenue incidence in Germany, but in the US, that's how it works.

Fai de bèn a Bertrand, te lou rendra en cagant

by redstar on Fri May 16th, 2008 at 12:38:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Ok, but to increase the taxes on the top 1% that much, it would be a point of honesty as well to tell that the electorate before the actual election.
Probably you as well don't believe that the US congress will double the maximum tax in the next four years.

Der Amerikaner ist die Orchidee unter den Menschen
Volker Pispers
by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Fri May 16th, 2008 at 12:54:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Oh no, absolutely I don't. And you are right, it is best to say you are going to do this, actually campaign on it, and frankly, I think it's an electoral winner, especially when you explain what you are going to do with the proceeds.

But neither party in the US believes in fair taxation, because their major funding sources would not be happy with paying their fair share. The free rider problem is one of many flaws of basic human nature, and the concentration of power in the US has gone so far as to make reform very difficult, if possible at all. Imho.

Fai de bèn a Bertrand, te lou rendra en cagant

by redstar on Fri May 16th, 2008 at 01:42:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]
So... You think that legalized highway robbery by the insurance companies is the right answer to health care, but it just needs to go farther? Remember, Clinton's plan was "pass a law requiring that everyone pay for insurance". That's like saying we can eliminate homelessness and starvation by passing a law requiring that everyone pay for a home and food. The right answer to that proposal isn't to extend it, it's to encase it in concrete and dump it into the Mariana Trench. Obama's plan isn't the best it could be (that would be the dread "socialized medicine"), but it's sure as hell better than Clinton's.
by Egarwaen on Fri May 16th, 2008 at 12:38:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I thought CLinton's plan also gave people the option to choose the same federal insurance plan government workers get, and at a reasonable rate, too.

Fai de bèn a Bertrand, te lou rendra en cagant
by redstar on Fri May 16th, 2008 at 12:43:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You're confusing the Edwards and Clinton plans. Understandable because the media has argued they're the same. But that's actually the Edwards plan which was designed to destroy the insurance companies and introduce single payer by the back door. Clinton's federal option is that of a bare bones plan.
by MarekNYC on Fri May 16th, 2008 at 01:33:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Stand corrected. That's right, Clinton's basic plan is, if I'm not mistaken, a simple "catastrophic" plan, ie doesn't cover much of anything until your out of pocket is like $10K/year. Forgot that.

Fai de bèn a Bertrand, te lou rendra en cagant
by redstar on Fri May 16th, 2008 at 01:44:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]
So here it is Ok to compromise and not to run for socialised health care, despite it is proveable better than the current US system?

Der Amerikaner ist die Orchidee unter den Menschen
Volker Pispers
by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Fri May 16th, 2008 at 12:56:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You are, of course, correct in your characterisation of what he was doing in attackign Clinton's plan.

This being said, his own plan cannot be fairly characterised as comprehensive, progressive or universal, either. Standard-fare Democratic party incrementalism.

You really only have to look at who his chief economic advisor is. That's not left, the economic policy an Obama administration is likely to pursue. It's the American centre, or the European far right.

Fai de bèn a Bertrand, te lou rendra en cagant

by redstar on Fri May 16th, 2008 at 12:32:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
He was attacking Clinton on her mandated health care because her "plan" basically consisted of passing a law saying that everyone must buy insurance. It wasn't universal health care, it was highway robbery.

Is the word "basically" here used in the sense of, "not in reality, but can be caricatured as?"

If a pay or play plan has a cap at 15% of income, payments from the employer under the "pay" option directed to the plan selected by the employee, whether the employee chooses a community-rated private plan or a community-rated public plan ...

... it seems to me that it consists of something more than "passing a law saying that everyone must buy insurance". Indeed, that a claim that is "basically" amounts to that is confused at best, deliberate politically-inspired misinformation at worst.

There are some places where Senator Clinton watered down the original Edwards plan so that she could claim "it will create no new bureaucracies", but there is no doubt which of the two were (since the NC and IN results, that is past tense) closer to Universal Health Care proposals.

No plan that can get through Congress could be what most Europeans take for granted as a bare minimum for a civilized society, but Senator Clinton's would have been a more serious step in that direction.


I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Fri May 16th, 2008 at 02:02:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
While I agree with you on mandates, the difference between the two plans is pretty small.

On taxes - let's get real. One of the key components of the Democratic coalition is the blue coastal metropolitan areas upper middle class (New Jersey 17% of Dem primary voters earned over 150K, Maryland 18%). And while one way of looking at it is the 97% figure, another is 'a little over double the median income of a family of four' in the NYC suburbs. Furthermore, it's still a pretty huge part of the total income pie. He's also planning on scrapping the SS cap meaning that the effective top federal marginal rate would end up at 47%. And that's federal - most states and some local governments have their own income tax, here in NYC you'd be looking at a top marginal rate of over sixty percent - care to compare that to your country? Plus he's proposing increasing the capital gains tax from the current 15% to 28%. All in all the wealthy are looking at their biggest tax hike in living memory - remind me, what did the most recent SPD government do? Care to refresh my memory on what sort of platform the CD's were running on in the last election?

Housing - I have some sympathy for your point of view, but it isn't at all clear what the progressive position should be on a crisis which is disproportionately affecting both middle income and minority households.

by MarekNYC on Fri May 16th, 2008 at 01:09:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
... the plans.

The first is the "hope for a miracle" approach to universal coverage in Senator Obama's plan.

The second is that the "pay" side of the "pay or play" does not go directly to funding the coverage of the employee, but is pooled into the funding base for the public plan, encouraging better paid employees to stay clear of the public plan.

The first is for political expediency, since focus grouping of younger voters will find that many of them prefer the "don't start paying in until you get sick" approach.

The second is to arrive at a small budgetary cost, since its a system that reduces the amount that the government must provide at the outset to subsidize the funding for lower-income workers.


I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Fri May 16th, 2008 at 02:08:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]
BruceMcF:

The second is that the "pay" side of the "pay or play" does not go directly to funding the coverage of the employee, but is pooled into the funding base for the public plan, encouraging better paid employees to stay clear of the public plan.

yeah, no sense in the USA importing the bugs in the euro healthcare systems.

~"When an inner situation is not made conscious, it appears outside as fate." Karl Jung~

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Sun May 18th, 2008 at 06:57:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Scapping the social security cap is not helpful. SS has surplusses so far. As this surplus is usually folded in the general deficit number, a higher SS cap will only lead to fake consoldidation. In the end it will come, that either the SS fund is looted in the general budge.

In Germany the top marginal rate you can get with a sufficient unlucky construction is over 80% if you are already at the top rate of income tax, but below the cap of social insurances.
The capital gains tax then however would be higher than here.
The SPD gov reduced the max income tax rate from 56% to 43%. However the current Merkel gov increased the rate again to 47.5% (but only for people well above the cap of social security), despite Merkel promised lower income taxes before the election. But if I look to last years budget surplus, I would say we can afford lower income taxes than in the US. We don't have to finance an inflated stock of state employees and the fanciest high tech stuff for our military as the US seems to have to.
And Obama will not cut the military budget by much.

Der Amerikaner ist die Orchidee unter den Menschen
Volker Pispers

by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Fri May 16th, 2008 at 03:48:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Scapping the social security cap is not helpful. SS has surplusses so far. As this surplus is usually folded in the general deficit number, a higher SS cap will only lead to fake consoldidation. In the end it will come, that either the SS fund is looted in the general budge.

How is it not helpful. As you point out, the SS surplus is fake since it is folded into the general budget. That means that the idea that the SS tax is not a tax but an insurance payment is a fiction. So a capped SS tax is simply a way of making the tax system regressive.

by MarekNYC on Fri May 16th, 2008 at 03:59:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]
So you have already given up the hope, that the social security fund will ever really be used to fund social security?

I thought it would not be helpful, because it covers that the revenue which was intended to spend on all the other stuff is not enough for all the other stuff. Some people even think the war in Iraq was only possible, because of the deception of the real shape of budget. The right thing in my opinion would be to announce the deficit numbers independent of the SS fund.
In Europe the retirement fonds are as well part of the unified budget deficit numbers. But in Europe these funds have deficits and capital based retirement is done entirely in 401(k) similar plans.

Der Amerikaner ist die Orchidee unter den Menschen
Volker Pispers

by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Fri May 16th, 2008 at 05:17:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

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