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He was attacking Clinton on her mandated health care because her "plan" basically consisted of passing a law saying that everyone must buy insurance. It wasn't universal health care, it was highway robbery. His statements on the housing crisis that I remember were mostly about mortgage relief; helping people who'd been trapped into predatory mortgages. Since this group has a hefty proportion of poor blacks... As for the last point... What exactly is the problem here? He's proposing to increase taxes on the rich, who currently pay less than anyone else.
by Egarwaen on Fri May 16th, 2008 at 12:14:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]
So the right answer to Clinton would have been extending the proposal, not come up with something which will still leave a lot of people uninsured.

And for the last point. The problem is, that it will not be enough to increase taxes only for the very rich, if he wants to bring real change. He won't be that transformative, that the US society changes in such a way, that it would become difficult for his successor to revert. He won't bring enough change, that the people can see that a social state works.

Der Amerikaner ist die Orchidee unter den Menschen
Volker Pispers

by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Fri May 16th, 2008 at 12:31:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You are correct to assert that progressive, or inclusive if you like this term better, policies cannot be pursued without a progressive tax structure which will cause large sections of the middle class to pay their fair share as well.

This being said, you can pretty well arguably wipe out the US federal budget deficit by taxing the top 1% at the same levels they were taxed at under the Nixon admnistration. And if you tax them at Eisenhower levels, you'll have enough to pay for healthcare reform.

Can't speak to income distributions or tax and revenue incidence in Germany, but in the US, that's how it works.

Fai de bèn a Bertrand, te lou rendra en cagant

by redstar on Fri May 16th, 2008 at 12:38:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Ok, but to increase the taxes on the top 1% that much, it would be a point of honesty as well to tell that the electorate before the actual election.
Probably you as well don't believe that the US congress will double the maximum tax in the next four years.

Der Amerikaner ist die Orchidee unter den Menschen
Volker Pispers
by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Fri May 16th, 2008 at 12:54:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Oh no, absolutely I don't. And you are right, it is best to say you are going to do this, actually campaign on it, and frankly, I think it's an electoral winner, especially when you explain what you are going to do with the proceeds.

But neither party in the US believes in fair taxation, because their major funding sources would not be happy with paying their fair share. The free rider problem is one of many flaws of basic human nature, and the concentration of power in the US has gone so far as to make reform very difficult, if possible at all. Imho.

Fai de bèn a Bertrand, te lou rendra en cagant

by redstar on Fri May 16th, 2008 at 01:42:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]
So... You think that legalized highway robbery by the insurance companies is the right answer to health care, but it just needs to go farther? Remember, Clinton's plan was "pass a law requiring that everyone pay for insurance". That's like saying we can eliminate homelessness and starvation by passing a law requiring that everyone pay for a home and food. The right answer to that proposal isn't to extend it, it's to encase it in concrete and dump it into the Mariana Trench. Obama's plan isn't the best it could be (that would be the dread "socialized medicine"), but it's sure as hell better than Clinton's.
by Egarwaen on Fri May 16th, 2008 at 12:38:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I thought CLinton's plan also gave people the option to choose the same federal insurance plan government workers get, and at a reasonable rate, too.

Fai de bèn a Bertrand, te lou rendra en cagant
by redstar on Fri May 16th, 2008 at 12:43:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You're confusing the Edwards and Clinton plans. Understandable because the media has argued they're the same. But that's actually the Edwards plan which was designed to destroy the insurance companies and introduce single payer by the back door. Clinton's federal option is that of a bare bones plan.
by MarekNYC on Fri May 16th, 2008 at 01:33:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Stand corrected. That's right, Clinton's basic plan is, if I'm not mistaken, a simple "catastrophic" plan, ie doesn't cover much of anything until your out of pocket is like $10K/year. Forgot that.

Fai de bèn a Bertrand, te lou rendra en cagant
by redstar on Fri May 16th, 2008 at 01:44:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]
So here it is Ok to compromise and not to run for socialised health care, despite it is proveable better than the current US system?

Der Amerikaner ist die Orchidee unter den Menschen
Volker Pispers
by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Fri May 16th, 2008 at 12:56:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You are, of course, correct in your characterisation of what he was doing in attackign Clinton's plan.

This being said, his own plan cannot be fairly characterised as comprehensive, progressive or universal, either. Standard-fare Democratic party incrementalism.

You really only have to look at who his chief economic advisor is. That's not left, the economic policy an Obama administration is likely to pursue. It's the American centre, or the European far right.

Fai de bèn a Bertrand, te lou rendra en cagant

by redstar on Fri May 16th, 2008 at 12:32:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
He was attacking Clinton on her mandated health care because her "plan" basically consisted of passing a law saying that everyone must buy insurance. It wasn't universal health care, it was highway robbery.

Is the word "basically" here used in the sense of, "not in reality, but can be caricatured as?"

If a pay or play plan has a cap at 15% of income, payments from the employer under the "pay" option directed to the plan selected by the employee, whether the employee chooses a community-rated private plan or a community-rated public plan ...

... it seems to me that it consists of something more than "passing a law saying that everyone must buy insurance". Indeed, that a claim that is "basically" amounts to that is confused at best, deliberate politically-inspired misinformation at worst.

There are some places where Senator Clinton watered down the original Edwards plan so that she could claim "it will create no new bureaucracies", but there is no doubt which of the two were (since the NC and IN results, that is past tense) closer to Universal Health Care proposals.

No plan that can get through Congress could be what most Europeans take for granted as a bare minimum for a civilized society, but Senator Clinton's would have been a more serious step in that direction.


I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Fri May 16th, 2008 at 02:02:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

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