or
this: The biggest chunk of people, who made it to the top, comes from the upper quantile. As members of the elevated bourgoisie, they have the properties, which are decisive at same qualification. [...] He found that the bourgoisie as well chooses different names. Chantal, Jacqueline oder Kevin are taboo. They sound like welfare and ghetto." Is it your fault, if your parents give you the wrong name? Or do you really think people called Kevin are less capable of leading an enterprise than people with name Peter? And don't underestimate that effect, it is real. And unlike the coloured American, the Kevin might not even notice, that his name dooms him. There are no laws to prevent Kevins from becoming bosses. But there are social stigmas, which sometimes have as big effects.
You think we live in a meritocracy, where always those are the winners who are the best for a job? Rediculous. And why should they, intelligence is probably about half genetically.
And should we in Germany have a special ossi treatment? After they were not allowed to give any meaningfull vote until recently. And after they have collectivly hardly a chance to have learned our elitists culture? I had at least twice here craftsmen, where the was a Badenian and an ossi. The ossi was doing the dirty work in the basement and the Badenia was doing the less dirty work in the flat.
Besides being ideological against such things as affirmative action, I'm afraid, that the explicit use and definition (what the hell is a coloured person, am I coloured, too, after sunburn?, maybe without a commitee saying who gets the benefits and who not, people wouldn't know anymore who to discriminate) of special treatment gives afterwards justification for social behaviour disfavouring those the lawmakers wanted to help in the first place.
However, I think redstar has a good point, when asserting, that race in the US covers so much other things, and with people still living who were victims of racial discrimination, one can of course think about helping them. Der Amerikaner ist die Orchidee unter den MenschenVolker Pispers
There are good reasons for government intervention to redress class inequality - which you argue for and I agree with. Yet not only do you reject it with respect to race, you insist on making ludicrous arguments that dismiss the very notion that it is a serious problem. And it is one not just in the US, but also in Germany. Suggesting that the US ignore it the way the Germans do (except of course when the CDU/CSU is outright inciting it) is really not appealing to US liberals. The idea is to copy the good sides of the European system, not the bad ones.
what the hell is a coloured person, am I coloured, too, after sunburn?, maybe without a commitee saying who gets the benefits and who not, people wouldn't know anymore who to discriminate
are you really this clueless or are you deliberately seeking to incite? It's the kind of stuff you'd expect to find on a freeper thread.
- Jake If you only spend 20 minutes of the rest of your life on economics, go spend them here.
I am not claiming that France is the only country to have such problems (but it happens to be an example I know of), nor that the problems are nearly as virulent as they are across the Pond. But I think that a case can be made that they exist.
Of course, in general your point still stands: European countries generally have a much more complex history of interaction with foreign ethnic groups, which of course means that the history of European racism is rather more complicated than the American ditto.
I'm not excusing or minimising European racism: I'm saying that viewing it through the same lens as US anti-black racism is inappropriate and unhelpful.
In the meantime many people are here and can stay here and can get the citizenship and often don't want it, when they have to give up their old citizenship for that.
Currently about 20% of the population has "migration background". But in most cities more than 40% of poeple under 40 have. The oldest living generation has nearly none. So what's your problem? Der Amerikaner ist die Orchidee unter den MenschenVolker Pispers
Are you really excusing that appalling piece of racism that was(?) German citizenship policy?
And yes, I fully excuse what I know about the German citizenship policy as non racistic. Der Amerikaner ist die Orchidee unter den MenschenVolker Pispers
...have you spent much time in Europe? No shortage of racism there.
In order: no and I know it, too.
I don't, and didn't, object to the message. I do, and did, think the rhetoric carrying that message jumped the shark.
Unless we are talking about widescale amnesia experienced as a collective defense mechanism. "Pretending that you already know the answer when you don't is not actually very helpful." ~Migeru.
Don't you think people can have multiple or mixed identities, as well as loyalties and residence? *Lunatic*, n. One whose delusions are out of fashion.
Is there an official Latin name for the rhetorical device of grasping at straws?
And it seems I wasn't clear enough. I don't think that most Turks born in Germany have rally a split loyality. At least not one, where Germany could get a similar priority for them as Turkey. Der Amerikaner ist die Orchidee unter den MenschenVolker Pispers
There is a Turk from Turkey, who just came for phd, in the institute I work. I have never met a Turk less nationalistic than him. I have the impression, that living in Germany may make Turks more nationalistic instead of less. Der Amerikaner ist die Orchidee unter den MenschenVolker Pispers
But the relevant question is, is that the typical case.
Relevant to what, and typical in what sense?
I have some migration experience, and I'd say mixed loyalties are almost universal - but there is a wide scale of the relative weights.
But with non-EU citizens this a real problem.
Why do you consider this a significant problem? Especially when compared to the problem for those non-EU citizens, whom you'd bar from influencing decisions affecting their lives (in addition to several little bureaucratic obstacles to conducting their lives)? *Lunatic*, n. One whose delusions are out of fashion.
I have no figures broken down by generation, but by the end of 2006, there were some 720,000 Turkish citizens naturalized post-1990, and 1.74 million who were not - and methinks the first group contains a good deal of the multiple-generation Turks.
Also, many with dual identities (though that probably applies less to the third generation) would rather wait for dual citizenship to become law at last than having to choose. *Lunatic*, n. One whose delusions are out of fashion.
There is no difference in the treatment of eastern Germans by law. The corresponding measures to what was done here would be to give economic weak states subsidies. There were lots of former east Germans going to the West and there were as well west Germans going to the east. I have no clue why this should be seen as any specific treatment for east German people. Der Amerikaner ist die Orchidee unter den MenschenVolker Pispers
And a side effect of affirmative action is that some blacks benefit who aven't been discriminateed against and come from well-off families, and some people of mixed descent who don't qualify as "blacks" but have suffered racial discrimination as such don't.
Why aren't there ghetto uplift programms
Because socialism didn't get as far as the fight against racism. Note though that the New Deal and the post-WWII programmes in the US also worked to lift a lot of people out of the non-black, immigrant ghettos in East Coast major cities.
it wouldn't be, 'you are treated different because your skin is dark'
Now, are you claiming that there is no trend of US blacks being treated different because of the colour of their skin, only because of their ghetto origins? *Lunatic*, n. One whose delusions are out of fashion.
I think I could dig up some studies on that from Hungary. No serf just peasant, and no study but anecdote, but I witnessed discirminative comments towards a classmate (he was a trouble kid, at another time he played xenophobic with me) based on being a farmboy at my West German school.
However, I definitely wouldn't judge serf origin comparable in seriousness with slave origin. *Lunatic*, n. One whose delusions are out of fashion.
having observed the complex and arcane genetic requirements to be classified 'hawaiian', (6 generations born and raised), i think i know what Martin meant.
it was phrased a bit funny... ~"When an inner situation is not made conscious, it appears outside as fate." Karl Jung~
