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Oh, I don't know about that. Surprising what you'll glean from the intertubes and such things. However, if we mention it the USians tend somewhat towards the defensive. US racism and most European racism is not the same thing at all, except very superficially. Well, anti-Latino racism, in some areas where they're new arrivals, might be equivalent to European anti-immigrant racism. The racism against African Americans is something else entirely.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Fri May 16th, 2008 at 06:01:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That depends, I suspect, on which country you are in. I have a sneaking suspicion that in some major colonial powers (none named, none forgotten) you might find a strain of racism that is uncomfortably similar to the one you have in the US.

- Jake

If you only spend 20 minutes of the rest of your life on economics, go spend them here.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Fri May 16th, 2008 at 06:16:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
What, against people who predated their arrival in the country and where used as slaves? No, not really, that I can think of.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Fri May 16th, 2008 at 06:21:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, just the descendants of people they sold as slaves in other countries at the time those areas belonged to them.
by MarekNYC on Fri May 16th, 2008 at 06:38:13 PM EST
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I think you can make the case that much of Europe is seriously in denial about much of the 19th century. And I cannot help but think that the attitudes of - say - France towards people descended from the Maghreb region (Algeria, Morocco plus the loose change) has more than a whiff of the American attitude towards blacks.

I am not claiming that France is the only country to have such problems (but it happens to be an example I know of), nor that the problems are nearly as virulent as they are across the Pond. But I think that a case can be made that they exist.

Of course, in general your point still stands: European countries generally have a much more complex history of interaction with foreign ethnic groups, which of course means that the history of European racism is rather more complicated than the American ditto.

- Jake

If you only spend 20 minutes of the rest of your life on economics, go spend them here.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sat May 17th, 2008 at 03:54:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
At what point do they stop being new arrivals?  The primary non-white group in Germany arrived between the late fifties and late seventies.  Sure, German right wing politicians like to call people born and raised in Germany 'immigrants' but let's get real here, it isn't about immigration levels, which aren't that high in Germany, but about race. A country where large chunks are no go areas for non-whites (I mean as bad as parts of the US are, you do not have companies forced to offer their non-white employees permanent security escorts for their commutes).  
by MarekNYC on Fri May 16th, 2008 at 06:18:30 PM EST
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I'd have said third or fourth generation, normally.

I'm not excusing or minimising European racism: I'm saying that viewing it through the same lens as US anti-black racism is inappropriate and unhelpful.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Fri May 16th, 2008 at 06:22:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]
When they came, they were no immigrants at all. The original rules how long somebody was allowed to stay were very strict and the people who came obviously accepted the rules, fully knowing them. Nobody was forced to come.

In the meantime many people are here and can stay here and can get the citizenship and often don't want it, when they have to give up their old citizenship for that.

Currently about 20% of the population has "migration background". But in most cities more than 40% of poeple under 40 have. The oldest living generation has nearly none. So what's your problem?

Der Amerikaner ist die Orchidee unter den Menschen
Volker Pispers

by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Fri May 16th, 2008 at 06:28:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I guess he is talking about national befreite Tonen, for example.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Sun May 18th, 2008 at 09:59:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Funny typo. Should be national befreite Zonen.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Sun May 18th, 2008 at 10:07:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]
There are (small) no-go areas in Ireland. Consisting entirely of Irish whites: gods forbid that any non-whites would go near them.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Fri May 16th, 2008 at 06:44:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Any discussion of racism in the US eventually winds up talking about slavery and -- believe me -- that is a huge elephant standing in the US living room.  We really don't want to talk about it, we know any discussion of racism ends up there sooner or later, so we deal with it in a mature manner: we ignore it until somebody else brings it up and then we get defensive/mad at them.
by ATinNM on Fri May 16th, 2008 at 06:42:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

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