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All those third generation people can get citizenship if they want. But most don't want.

Der Amerikaner ist die Orchidee unter den Menschen
Volker Pispers
by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Fri May 16th, 2008 at 06:29:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Wasn't the law changed recently?
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Fri May 16th, 2008 at 06:33:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The law was changed, so that everybody born in Germany automatic has citizenship by birth.

Der Amerikaner ist die Orchidee unter den Menschen
Volker Pispers
by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Fri May 16th, 2008 at 06:37:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]
By the left, opposed by parties you cleave to? Uh-huh.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Fri May 16th, 2008 at 06:40:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The CDU/CSU opposed successfully against double citizenship.
People who were born in Germany have the citizenship, but if they have another citizenship, too, they have to give one away, when they become 18. And indeed I think that at least two EU citizenships are indeed problematic.

Der Amerikaner ist die Orchidee unter den Menschen
Volker Pispers
by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Fri May 16th, 2008 at 06:52:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Problematic in what way?

Don't you think people can have multiple or mixed identities, as well as loyalties and residence?

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Sun May 18th, 2008 at 08:52:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Because they can vote in two parliaments in two countries, which means double influence on the EU council.

Der Amerikaner ist die Orchidee unter den Menschen
Volker Pispers
by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Sun May 18th, 2008 at 09:13:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I think that given the small number of people who would both apply for dual citizenship and vote in both countries makes it rather a small price to pay, especially when compered with how much the two passports count for the applicant personally. Also, would it become a problem, it could be regulated.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Sun May 18th, 2008 at 09:27:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]
There is a rather simpler solution: Strangle the Council and dump it in a shallow, unmarked grave. I wouldn't miss it.

- Jake

If you only spend 20 minutes of the rest of your life on economics, go spend them here.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sun May 18th, 2008 at 04:18:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You know, I'm pretty relaxed about that, given the indirect nature of council representation.

Is there an official Latin name for the rhetorical device of grasping at straws?

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Sun May 18th, 2008 at 04:21:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, then what about
  • military service, not that a good excuse to be not available, because serving in another country
  • and yes split, or better unsplit, loyalities  - dodo asked: "Don't you think people can have multiple or mixed identities, as well as loyalties and residence?" Yes, people can have. But the relevant question is, is that the typical case. I doubt that.

This other problems I don't see inside the EU, where the solution I would prefer would be to make a EU citizenship and everybody votes, where he lives, or where he lived last before leaving the EU. But with non-EU citizens this a real problem.

Der Amerikaner ist die Orchidee unter den Menschen
Volker Pispers
by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Sun May 18th, 2008 at 04:46:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, military service is a freaky practice anyway, so I suggest just abolishing it, and the more people with split loyalty the better. Nationalism is not a good thing.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Sun May 18th, 2008 at 05:17:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]
But then please in the right order. First getting rid of military service and second allow for multiple citizenships.

And it seems I wasn't clear enough. I don't think that  most Turks born in Germany have rally a split loyality. At least not one, where Germany could get a similar priority for them as Turkey.

Der Amerikaner ist die Orchidee unter den Menschen
Volker Pispers

by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Sun May 18th, 2008 at 05:32:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Can you clarify your second paragraph? It seems like you might be  saying that  Germans of Turkish descent have a primary allegience to Turkey? Is that what you mean?
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Sun May 18th, 2008 at 05:38:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm sure there are sociological surveys of the German-born Turks to answer that question without having to resort to what anyone thinks.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun May 18th, 2008 at 05:38:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
If you find them, fine.
I have searched and found no representative surveys with the words 'Umfrage  Loyalität Deutschtürken'.
But I found this"
"[...] Also Bilkay Öney, the speaker for migrational issues of the greens in the Berlin (state) parliamen, found Erdogans speach in the Köln-Arena pretty bad. He can't tell one day in the German media [mostly read by Germans, Martin] ask the Turks for more integration, and the next day [in front of only Turks or people with Turkish ancients, Martin] warn the Turks of too much alignment. That makes him uncredible. She estimates, that the speach in front of 16000 Turks [note, Turks is the word in the text, despite I'm sure there were quite some people without Turkish citizenship] mostly was for the partisans of his conservative AK party. This party has many partisans among Deutsch-Türken [don't know how to translate best, Martin]. Öney estimates, that more than one half are positioned nationalistic-conservative. They want to conserve their values, because they are afraid to lose their identity far from home."

There is a Turk from Turkey, who just came for phd, in the institute I work. I have never met a Turk less nationalistic than him. I have the impression, that living in Germany may make Turks more nationalistic instead of less.

Der Amerikaner ist die Orchidee unter den Menschen
Volker Pispers

by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Sun May 18th, 2008 at 06:20:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Military service, just like taxation, is already regulated, usually bilaterally. The possibility of double voting is also limited when a country allows only residents to vote (the rule I would prefer universally, though Migeru will disagree strongly). Double voting may still be special among these issues inasmuch as elections aren't held at the same time in different countries, so one could in theory always move to the one that is just voting. But I have no problem with that. After all, people who move from one country to another and naturalize there also vote in two countries.

But the relevant question is, is that the typical case.

Relevant to what, and typical in what sense?

I have some migration experience, and I'd say mixed loyalties are almost universal - but there is a wide scale of the relative weights.

But with non-EU citizens this a real problem.

Why do you consider this a significant problem? Especially when compared to the problem for those non-EU citizens, whom you'd bar from influencing decisions affecting their lives (in addition to several little bureaucratic obstacles to conducting their lives)?

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Sun May 18th, 2008 at 05:32:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Actually they do want to, and are getting it courtesy of a law pushed through by the left in the late nineties. What I was referring to is that the CDU and CSU - political parties you apparently like, vehemently opposed the change. Just a few months ago a leading CDU politician based his campaign against 'immigrant violence', making no distinction between immigrants and those born and raised in Germany. Also over the past decade CSU politicians have argued that 'immigrants' born and raised in Germany should be deported to their 'home country' if they commit crimes.  
by MarekNYC on Fri May 16th, 2008 at 06:36:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't have to agree with everything the parties I support do, have I?

Der Amerikaner ist die Orchidee unter den Menschen
Volker Pispers
by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Fri May 16th, 2008 at 07:00:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Most?

I have no figures broken down by generation, but by the end of 2006, there were some 720,000 Turkish citizens naturalized post-1990, and 1.74 million who were not - and methinks the first group contains a good deal of the multiple-generation Turks.

Also, many with dual identities (though that probably applies less to the third generation) would rather wait for dual citizenship to become law at last than having to choose.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Sun May 18th, 2008 at 09:48:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]

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