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individually or culturally?

Life should consist in at least fifty percent pure waste of time, and the rest doing what you please.
by ceebs (bunchofwankers (at) gmail (dot) com) on Wed May 21st, 2008 at 12:14:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Culturally.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed May 21st, 2008 at 12:21:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]
A hundredth.

Auferre, trucidare, rapere, falsis nominibus imperium; atque, ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant.
by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Wed May 21st, 2008 at 12:34:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That much?
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed May 21st, 2008 at 12:44:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I've repeatedly seen assumptions of population density of 1 hab/km² for hunters/foragers in temperate climates, and I am under the idea that the European population density is around 100 hab/km²...

That means of course after all the land has returned to some sort of "wilderness". And the absence of competition from other large predators, nowadays decimated in Europe, may mean slightly higher densities.

Auferre, trucidare, rapere, falsis nominibus imperium; atque, ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant.

by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Wed May 21st, 2008 at 07:12:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Nonlinear scaling of space use in human hunter-gatherers -- Hamilton et al. 104 (11): 4765 -- Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences
In this paper, we follow the definition used by animal ecologists and refer to the space used by an individual or social group as its home range. The home range, H0 (area in km2), required by an individual to meet its metabolic requirements is determined primarily by the rate of resource supply, R (in W/km2). Because humans feed on animal and plant foods, rates of resource supply, like most biological rates, increase exponentially with ecosystem temperature. Ecosystem temperature affects rates of biological production and interaction at multiple levels, including biomass production, ontogenetic and population growth rates, timing of life history events, and interactions with parasites and diseases. Much of this variation is captured by the Boltzmann factor, e-E/kt, where E (in eV) is the activation energy for the rate limiting biochemical reactions of metabolism, k (8.62 x 10-5 eV K-1) is Boltzmann's constant, and T (in K) is temperature (16-18).


Life should consist in at least fifty percent pure waste of time, and the rest doing what you please.
by ceebs (bunchofwankers (at) gmail (dot) com) on Wed May 21st, 2008 at 12:58:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]
So we don't know?
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed May 21st, 2008 at 01:29:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'd say from the calculations proffered, then there's an order of magnitude difference in the possible results. plus much of the most productive foraging areas have been covered in concrete


Life should consist in at least fifty percent pure waste of time, and the rest doing what you please.
by ceebs (bunchofwankers (at) gmail (dot) com) on Wed May 21st, 2008 at 02:10:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]
If you include hunting and breeding chickens as well as cosmetic picking at hedgerows, it gets slightly more likely.

I wouldn't be surprised if there were enough rabbits within a mile's radius of where I live to feed the entire village over the summer.

Since it's about a mile between villages, that would be a start towards self-sufficiency.

But that's to feed around fifty people - not fifty thousand.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Wed May 21st, 2008 at 06:42:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
So 50 people per square mile?

The UK has a population density of over 600 per square mile. Oops...

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jun 18th, 2008 at 02:14:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't think you can keep fifty people alive for a year if all they do is forage - probably in any area.

While the rabbits here are plentiful over the summer, over the winter there's really nothing at all available for picking off a tree - unless you grow it, preserve it, or both.

In medieval times, 15-30 acres (6 to 12ha) were considered enough to support a family. Modern farming would be - at a guess - 5 to 10 times more productive.

So you could homestead successfully and possibly also be energy self-sufficient on around 3-5 acres, or perhaps an acre if you're a sustainable farming god.

But it would be organised seasonal growing and storing - foraging wouldn't be a big part of it.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Wed Jun 18th, 2008 at 09:26:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
So we're talking 1-2ha per family for food... 2ha might also provide you with 20KW of wind power.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Jun 19th, 2008 at 03:08:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You'd need 20kW if you wanted to run an electric tractor - if such a thing existed, which so far as I know it doesn't. Ploughing with donkeys or oxen isn't a ton of fun.

Your self-sufficiency still depends on reasonable weather. If it's too wet or too dry or too stormy or too sunny, your crops fail and you starve.

The most useful thing civilisation does is manage storage and distribution of food to create a surplus and a safety net. (For most of the world.) The second most useful thing is management of infrastructure, including irrigation, drinking water, drainage and power distribution. The third is centralised access to expert services, including R&D/innovation, and medical care.

If everyone is a smallholder, all of those become more complicated and potentially less effective.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Thu Jun 19th, 2008 at 03:43:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Which is why survivalism is only realistic in a post-apocalyptic scenario.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Jun 19th, 2008 at 05:20:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]
ThatBritGuy:
The most useful thing civilisation does is manage storage and distribution of food to create a surplus and a safety net. (For most of the world.) The second most useful thing is management of infrastructure, including irrigation, drinking water, drainage and power distribution. The third is centralised access to expert services, including R&D/innovation, and medical care.
We might want to use this as a counter to suggestions that Civilisation is a Pyramic Scheme.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Jun 19th, 2008 at 05:23:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]

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