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The demand reduction will be starting now. People will be driving less, flying less, buying less, and heating their homes less.

It still won't help, because the genius of the markets has failed to offer any reasonable short or medium term alternative.

Rationing, power cuts, and a limited working week are the next stage, and will guarantee a wave of foreclosures and other financial mayhem.

We are, in fact, completely fucked already.

Only supersized alternative energy projects, like the Severn Barrage, are going to be able to make a dent in what's needed. Anything smaller is going to be cosmetic.

But it's going to take years to get those big projects legislated and built. And we don't have years.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Wed May 21st, 2008 at 06:34:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]
And how do we know any of this with such certainty? I suppose asking that question is going to unleash another storm of indignation that I dare ask.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed May 21st, 2008 at 06:43:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I can't help but think of a story from WW2. The US military required a vehcile to make amphibous landings. The total time from the inital request, through design and into full production was 30 days.
What is happening is a crisis. Already change is underway. Its slow but you be surprised how quickly change can take once necessity is identified.

As a rather famous Frenchman (guess which one) once said..."People only accept change when they are faced with necessity, and only recognise necessity when a crisis is upon them".

The solution is not going to be some big thunderbolt from the sky, but a host of smaller actions.

On the wings of a billion butterflys.

by EvilEuropean (evileuropean@googlemail.com) on Wed May 21st, 2008 at 07:42:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The difference there is that the US was already on a war footing, and the industrial base was being pushed to operate at maximum speed. A more realistic view would be to look at how long it took to get the US working on war in the first place - which was a few years, starting with plenty of existing industrial capacity.

The difference now is there's limited industrial capacity, and limited political understanding of the problem. No one could debate the fact that the war in Europe was happening. But you can interpret peak oil and climate change endlessly without having to do anything about them.

If it were framed as a war effort - or something like it - you'd start to see some changes. But that's unlikely to happen with any of the current crop of pols. And the population aren't used to being told they have to make sacrifices, so they're unlikely to vote for anyone who says otherwise.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Wed May 21st, 2008 at 08:11:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I am making an analogy (I thought that was obvious!), one which is that once things get going, the pace of change can be rather shocking.

Peak oil is tied in, at least from an energy perspective, is tied in with climate change. At least in Europe, climate change has been a major political issue for at least a decade. The result of that has been an upswing in R&D across a range of technologies such as printable solar panels, bigger wind turbines, fuel efficency and fuel cells. The scope and range of technolgies that exist and going to exist is truly mind blowing.

These technolgies are coming increasingly on stream and going into production. These are also areas in which Europe dominates. Inudustrial capicaity is limited, but it is not static, it can be increased when demand increaes. It also helps that the EU has the largest industrial base on the planet.

The challegne tends not to be technological, but political and social. People STILL deny that climate change is an issue, that high oil prices are JUST because of taxes, and so forth. Its up to politicans to address the issues, and for an infomed populos to make sure they stay focused.

Thank-fully(!) climate change is the 900lb gorrila sitting in the corner of the room messing the place up. It did not go away, and has now brought its mates along to smash up the party. Europe is better placed than the USA with regard to peak energy because we have taken climate more seriously and have been making investments, both in terms of technology and socially and poltically.

We are not yet on a 'war' footing, and it does take time, but as my original analogy was making, once things get going, progress can be very rapid.

The next decade, mark my words, be very intresting.

by EvilEuropean (evileuropean@googlemail.com) on Wed May 21st, 2008 at 09:03:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It will be difficult on the transport front.. but not as much in the energy front.. amaor projects in electricity would probably be needed .b. utt hey are roughly on time adn with a delay of 5 years at the most.

Regarding major shift in private transport... I am quite with you here...soutions are way way behind.. adn the investment needed willl take  a decade at fast speed....so driving less and flying less is the only option I foresee now. Luckily, this would be enough since we are overusing roughly 15 million barrels per day on unnecessary driving.

Another question is how people would feel about having to drive less and about the oil-realted inflation in agricultural and imported products.

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Wed May 21st, 2008 at 07:57:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]
kcurie:
It will be difficult on the transport front.. but not as much in the energy front.. amaor projects in electricity would probably be needed .b. utt hey are roughly on time adn with a delay of 5 years at the most.

Not in the UK, unfortunately. We have plenty of greenwashed PR spin, but not so much of the useful power-generating windmill spin.

The point isn't so much about where we are now, it's that there are no plans - none at all - for dealing with peak oil.

There will be contingencies for rioting and civil unrest, and probably some mouldy minimal food stocks somewhere. But Whitehall and Westminster have no clue how to deal with oil or gas shortages.

The last time this happened inflation exploded, and we were all on a three day week with rolling power cuts trying to survive by candlelight. I don't see any evidence of better organisation this time around.

It's going to take mega-schemes like the Saharan Sun project to make a difference, and that's not looking likely until around 2020 at the earliest.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Wed May 21st, 2008 at 08:22:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]
True, the UK is in a worse position than most. THe British are going to have to rely on the kindness of those presky Brussels bureacrats!

I wonder if there will be a 'Not investing enough in your future energy needs' funds?!

by EvilEuropean (evileuropean@googlemail.com) on Wed May 21st, 2008 at 09:20:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I agree completley. the UK is in s more difficult place than Spain regarding energy projects.

The problem in SPain is the same as in other parts of the world regading no "forwad thinking" regarding peak-transport but I wanted to point out that not everyone is as fuc*** as UK and other coutnires in similar situations) which may have problem in the electric grid without shrot-term solutions :)

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Wed May 21st, 2008 at 01:36:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
We are in a pretty pathetic position it's true, but I take a smidgeon (only a smidgeon mind) of comfort in the fact that we've been indulging in massively drawn out planning procedures for things like the London Array (an extra 45% on the construction cost due to planning delays thankyouverymuch). The UK currently has ~9GW of windpower projects stuck in planning hell and the very real prospect of a similar certifications quagmire for the proposed nuclear fleet.

If it gets to the stage of 3-day weeks and rolling power cuts, then I would expect such bureaucratic/administrative luxuries will be ditched quicker than a very quick thing. Of course if our governing classes had been a bit more clueful then we'd have avoided all the costs and inefficiencies of doing a crash build at the same time as world+dog - but you can't have everything.

Regards
Luke

-- #include witty_sig.h

by silburnl on Thu May 22nd, 2008 at 07:11:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]
How far away is the UK from 3-day weeks and rolling blackouts?

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu May 22nd, 2008 at 07:25:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]
not too far away, certainly within ten years without new capacity. I went to an excellent lecture about 18 months ago by the energy advisor to the scottish parliament and he laid it out simply, that the UK needs vast investment in energy plants to replace the many nuclear and coal plants being decommissioned over the coming decade.
by darrkespur on Thu May 22nd, 2008 at 07:57:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]
But that is 10 years of gradual demand increase and stepwise but not catastrophic supply decrease (by power plant attrition). It's not a shock on the scale or speed or the 1973 oil embargo or the mining/power  strikes in the UK in the 1970's.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu May 22nd, 2008 at 04:25:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
no it's definitely a boiling frog thing and governments are aware of it. No wonder there's the push for nuclear and new coal plants, they know they'll need a buffer in the interim.

I start my PHD in nanophysics this July, working on nanocrystalline diamond, which could be a really efficient converter of solar heat to electricity. My project will be trying to adapt the material to use in Condensed Thermal Solar plants, with any luck we'll be producing it within five years at much greater efficiencies than the steam ones used now. If we don't get there, someone will. The technologies are coming and it's beginning to get serious funding so hopefully any new plants in the short term will just be stopgaps.

by darrkespur on Fri May 23rd, 2008 at 07:01:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I thought the three-day work week and power cuts were related to the miners strikes and such things?
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu May 22nd, 2008 at 08:04:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]
at the time of the three day week a particularly intrepid reporter went to the editor of the Daily Mirror and suggested that they hire a light aircraft, and fly over the power stations to take stereoscopic photos of the coal stockpiles and from calculating their size, see whether a three day week was truly necessary. he was told it wasn't necessary as the leader of the miners union had personally assured the editor that there was plenty of coal at the power stations. So he rang the editor of the Daily Telegraph suggesting the same scheme, only to be told it wasn't necessary as the editor had been personally rung by the prime minister and assured that there was definitely a severe coal shortage at the power stations.

Life should consist in at least fifty percent pure waste of time, and the rest doing what you please.
by ceebs (bunchofwankers (at) gmail (dot) com) on Thu May 22nd, 2008 at 09:24:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I am right in thinking that it was at best a second or third order effect of the oil shocks though? Inflation leading to industrial unrest?
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu May 22nd, 2008 at 09:48:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]
from what I remember yes, although I remember it being said to show the necessity of reform, etc. etc. and has been used ever since as a stick to beat the unions with.

Life should consist in at least fifty percent pure waste of time, and the rest doing what you please.
by ceebs (bunchofwankers (at) gmail (dot) com) on Thu May 22nd, 2008 at 10:14:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The last time this happened inflation exploded, and we were all on a three day week with rolling power cuts trying to survive by candlelight. I don't see any evidence of better organisation this time around.

I don't see how that analogy holds at all. What unions are going to close down the power generation system in a sudden shock this time around?
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu May 22nd, 2008 at 09:53:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]
ThatBritGuy:
Rationing, power cuts, and a limited working week are the next stage, and will guarantee a wave of foreclosures and other financial mayhem.

This bit may be part of the solution rather than the problem. It may well be necessary to move society to a lower production/consumption level. Limiting the workweek and rationing fuel as forced by petroleum shortage may well be the ticket. Assuming it would be done alongside strategic investment in alternate power infrastructure and a general move towards sustainability to allow for comfortable existence at a lower consumption level I see nothing bad here. A drawdown of the workweek and cuts in consumption are after all just repacking productivity gains in time rather than material affluence.
by someone (s0me1smail(a)gmail(d)com) on Wed May 21st, 2008 at 09:08:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The demand reduction will be starting now. People will be driving less, flying less, buying less, and heating their homes less.

It's already started.  Down here, at least, petrol usage has been flat for the last two years, and some preliminary statistics earlier in the month suggested that counter to all the economists predictions, it had in fact dropped.  That's what three years of high prices and a recognition it is only goign to get worse will do to you.

Unfortunately, our government has used it as an excuse not to include transport in its emissions trading scheme. Stupid, stupid, stupid.

by IdiotSavant on Wed May 21st, 2008 at 10:30:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Only supersized alternative energy projects, like the Severn Barrage, are going to be able to make a dent in what's needed.

I disagree completely. Many such mega-projects, and the Severn Barrage especially,

  1. are big only relative to a single distributed power project, but not relative to potential annual installations, not to speak of total demand;
  2. take a long time to be built.

It's not the size of the single project that must be big, but total annual installations (all projects, be them one mega or a million mini). And it doesn't really matter whether, say, a massively increased solar cell production finds its purchasers in a Sahara mega-project or millions of homeowners. (In fact, thinking of the former's extra costs in setting up construction far-away, power transfer infrastructure, and maintenance; it may not even be cheaper on more sunshine and economies of scale.)

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Thu May 22nd, 2008 at 04:04:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The demand reduction will be starting now. People will be driving less, flying less, buying less, and heating their homes less.

It still won't help, because the genius of the markets has failed to offer any reasonable short or medium term alternative.

I don't think that follows. Jerome's diary is documenting medium-term market expectations of high oil prices in the medium term, and now even the IEA is revising its supply forecasts. Which means that in the short term we should start seeing changes in medium-term planning both at the government and corporate levels.
Rationing, power cuts, and a limited working week are the next stage, and will guarantee a wave of foreclosures and other financial mayhem.
You're assuming political unwillingness to address a crisis when it manifests itself, which is not a given.
we don't have years.
I think we do. There was a story recently about Juneau, Alaska, reducing its power consumption by 30% in a matter of weeks by lifestyle changes induced by a disruption of its electricity supply. We in fact have a few years to reduce our demand by 30% while building renewable energy projects.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu May 22nd, 2008 at 04:21:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

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