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It's riding on the installed base but from an energy cost POV, $135 / 87 &euro is a really poor deal.

For comparison sake, a barrel of oil is about 6.12 GJ / 1,700 KWh. At 87 &euro / bbl, that's 0.051 &euro / kWh, pretty much similar to the actual "bulk" cost of electricity in most Western countries for industrial users. So if you buy oil, you pay the same for an unrefined source of energy before including any conversion loss than you would pay for a similar amount of energy under the most versatile form and "low entropy" form there is.

The premium of portability offered by oil is really starting to be stiff.



Facts, selfish little bastards. They don't even care about your feelings.
by Francois in Paris on Wed Jun 4th, 2008 at 02:46:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The premium of portability offered by oil is really starting to be stiff.

As it should be, because portability is a huge advantage.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jun 4th, 2008 at 02:49:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]
As it should be, because portability is a huge advantage.

No, certainly not.

Not at this price once you factor conversion losses in portable applications, 70% to 80% for oil vs. ~20% for a battery/electrical engine set.

Cost of 1 kWh of portable energy actually delivered, assuming 300 recharges a year and equivalent "stored" in gasoline:

  • Electricity = 1 kWh / (100% - 20%) = 1.25 kWh stored x 300 times =   375 kWh
  • Oil = 1 kWh / (100% - 80%) = 5 kWh stored x 300 times = 1,500 kWh
  • Delta = 1,125 kWh / year @ 0.05 €/kWh* = 56.25 € / year for 1 kWh worth of transportable energy.

(* For reference, night-time electricity in France for individuals is 0.0661 €/kWh, close to the generic "bulk" 0.05€/kWh I'm using)

Assuming a 10 years system lifetime, the cost of storage has to be at 562.5 €/kWh delivered, 450 €/kWh stored (20% losses) to break even. Usual trade-off, pay up-front vs. hurt later.

Except where weight is a very strong limit (planes, duh) or daily recharges are cumbersome (long haul trucks), batteries are getting in that area.

For reference, that sep 2007 article (see last page) gives the following costs:

  • $40 to $50/kWh for lead-acid.
  • $350/kWh for NiMH in small portable appliances.
  • $450/kWh for LiIon in small portable appliances.
  • $700/kWh for the fast cycling NiMH batteries used in current hybrids, which far more are punishing on their low capacity batteries than an EV would be for its much larger batteries.

The first EV LiIon productions will be more expensive because of manufacturing setup and so on, but not intrinsically because of technology. So we can assume $600/kWh / 400€/kWh for EV LiIon in mass production as of today's technology. Double that again because LiIon batteries are actually used at 50% of their rated charge.

That's 800€/kWh stored and available, as of today.

Not there yet but not that far off.

And it's a very rough calculation I used above, bulk industrial pre-tax vs. bulk industrial pre-tax. I'm not factoring the ICE cost for oil, nor efficiency gains from regenerative breaking in EV, nor even transformation and distribution costs and taxes, not to say a word of the geo-strategic costs of buying oil and of the  assorted trade deficit, the health and environmental cost of ICE emissions,  etc. And I'm not even factoring the worth of being able to tell the Saudis to fuck off in hell : priceless.

So, yes, oil has overshot. Badly. It's on its way out and not because we're running out of it.

Facts, selfish little bastards. They don't even care about your feelings.

by Francois in Paris on Wed Jun 4th, 2008 at 04:36:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Can I ask you to put these kinds of calculations in a diary some time?

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jun 4th, 2008 at 05:21:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Francois in Paris:
$40 to $50/kWh for lead-acid.

This seems very cheap for what's really rather a nasty technology.

Is that an installation cost, or a total lifecycle cost including sensible disposal?

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Wed Jun 4th, 2008 at 02:46:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You don't dispose lead acid batteries! You recycle them!

And yes, it's really cheap for industrial type batteries - submarines, fixed back-up batteries, etc - but it's also very heavy and cumbersome with the liquid electrolyte, etc. It's just there for reference and it's inapplicable to small applications.

It's also very sensitive to lead cost. Assume ~15 kg Pb/kWh. Lead is on a huge ramp right-now from $500/$1000/tonne over the past two decades to nearly $3,000/tonne this year, AFAIK in large part because of demand for electrical mopeds in China.

http://www.ilzsg.org/static/stocksandprices.aspx?from=2


Facts, selfish little bastards. They don't even care about your feelings.

by Francois in Paris on Wed Jun 4th, 2008 at 03:33:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]
when individual electric transport is available on a large scale. Unti lthen, you get to compare private car trips with public transport or other alternatives, and people seem to value one over the other quite a lot.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Wed Jun 4th, 2008 at 02:56:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]
If Western governments stick their fingers off their asses rather than "communicate" on greeny gooditude, it can happen in a few years.


Facts, selfish little bastards. They don't even care about your feelings.
by Francois in Paris on Wed Jun 4th, 2008 at 04:41:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]

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