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The US...I don't think so. And I wasn't joking by asking the question about Russia. Has it changed that much at the top?


you are the media you consume.

by MillMan (millguy at gmail) on Thu May 8th, 2008 at 05:01:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Has what changed?  

"Pretending that you already know the answer when you don't is not actually very helpful." ~Migeru.
by poemless on Thu May 8th, 2008 at 05:12:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
How Russian leaders view and react to the world.

you are the media you consume.

by MillMan (millguy at gmail) on Thu May 8th, 2008 at 05:15:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well yes!  I'd say greatly, in fact.

Here's my ill-informed and biased cliff's note of the situation:

  1.  In 1990 you had a nomenklatura raised and educated entirely within the Soviet system.  It was a Cold War mentality.  Cold War lite, to be sure.  But for all the openess to democratic reform, there was also a good deal of bloody panic as everything fell apart.  In 1991 it did.

  2.  There was the idea that since Russia was enacting democratic reform, the West would give them a helping hand.  You're moving from Cold Ward enemies -> willingness to work together as equals -> Russian economic dependence on the West.  

  3.  So during the 90's it's basically chaos as the formerly Communist elite try to embrace free-market reform.  The West loves Russia outwardly for embracing democracy, inwardly for embracing capitalism, a system they enter totally in debt to the West, putting them in a position of little power.  Meanwhile, within Russia people were thinking more about power grabs (a la Yeltsin) and land/money grabs (a la the Oligarchs) than foreign policy.  It's madness and eventually the whole economy collapses in 98.  

  4.  In 2000 Putin's put in power with the idea he'll continue the the "democratic reforms" of Yeltsin.  Outwardly, this means freedom of speech, etc.  Inwardly it means unchecked capitalism, privatization.  He slowly reverses some of both.  Pissing off the West and some Oligarchs alike.  In doing so he manages to stabilize the economy and return Russia to a position where it is not forced to do the bidding of the West and can have political leverage to protect its national interests on the global stage.  

  5.  The West does not congratulate Russia on finally getting its act together but becomes bitter and bullying because this is not what they'd planned.

  6.  Russia is like, what up, hommies?  This is the game you sold to us.  And we are winning.  So shut up and do what we say!  

  7.  And the West is like, Gah!  It's the Cold War all over again!  

It's been a difficult relationship.  

"Pretending that you already know the answer when you don't is not actually very helpful." ~Migeru.
by poemless on Thu May 8th, 2008 at 05:38:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]
So not much has changed, really.

  1. A small group of elites controlling the country's wealth - Soviet communism doesn't look that different than crony capitalism in terms of who wins, who loses, and in what numbers. Instead of the party apparatus, it's the oligarchs running the show.

  2. Overblown Soviet / Russian threat - yes, the Soviets had nukes, but their power and aims were always overstated in the western media, and still are.

  3. Zero political freedom during the Soviet era, minimal political freedom today.

  4. A near total reliance on natural resource exports for revenue - this played a part in the collapse of the Soviet Union, and it will almost certainly lead to another collapse when the fossil fuel driven industrial age draws to a close.


you are the media you consume.

by MillMan (millguy at gmail) on Thu May 8th, 2008 at 05:58:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Ok.  So if that's what you believe, why did you bother to ask?

"Pretending that you already know the answer when you don't is not actually very helpful." ~Migeru.
by poemless on Thu May 8th, 2008 at 06:02:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
For the purposes of discussion!

Obviously "things" have "changed" enormously. My litmus test is standard of living and political freedom and I discount changes in ideology, hence (I think) our differences on what "change" means.

you are the media you consume.

by MillMan (millguy at gmail) on Thu May 8th, 2008 at 06:25:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]
"Standard of living" and "political freedom" were not your answer when I asked "what"?

The standard of living has improved overall, though in fairness, some of the more rural areas are fairing worse since Communism.  But even that is slowly changing.  I'm not sure we have a lot of information about the standard of living under Communism.  Or how you quantify that.  People are buying homes and cars for the first time.  There is a "middle class" for the first time...  

Political freedom?  Just because it is worse than under Yeltsin (though freedom of speech is not high on your list when you are starving) does not mean it is as bad as it was under Communism.  Russia has one of the most active Internet communities on the planet.  Most of the nationalization of the media has been limited to TV.  At this point, there is no possible way they could return to a Soviet-style repression.

"Pretending that you already know the answer when you don't is not actually very helpful." ~Migeru.

by poemless on Thu May 8th, 2008 at 06:32:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]
In standard of living, there was an enormous change for the worse, then again a change for the better, and ignoring what was in-between and saying "so nothing much changed" will sound enormously arrogant and dismissive for those who lived through it.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Thu May 8th, 2008 at 06:41:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Exactly.

"Pretending that you already know the answer when you don't is not actually very helpful." ~Migeru.
by poemless on Thu May 8th, 2008 at 06:52:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Being contrary for its own sake...fine.

Magnifico said:

I think the New Cold War would need to survive at least one leadership change on both side of the U.S.-Russia equation... Russia has already "changed". So, if relationships do not improve with a new U.S. president in 2009, then it's no longer the New Cold War... it's just Cold War II: The Climate Change.

To which I asked, mostly as an agreement with his post:

Has either country changed significantly at the institutional level since 1990?

The answer, in terms of foreign relations, seems to be no. The US has always been belligerent towards the Soviet Union / Russia, and having "won" the cold war, decided that the rest of the world really does have to do its bidding, and pressed its influence into Eastern Europe and Central Asia. The Soviets were nominally belligerent while in power, but the threat they posed was overstated by the western media outside the nuclear threat, and despite a non-belligerent Russian government today, the nuclear threat still remains, if for no other reason that the continued existence of the missiles.

Somehow this turned into me being insensitive toward the suffering of the people living in the former Soviet Union. Herding cats indeed - we can knick each other with a 1000 cuts, or maybe engage with people who, you know, actually hate Russia, of which there is no shortage.

you are the media you consume.

by MillMan (millguy at gmail) on Thu May 8th, 2008 at 07:15:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
If you have not already, please read the article "America's New Cold War" I've linked to above.  It lays all of this out much better than I can.

"Pretending that you already know the answer when you don't is not actually very helpful." ~Migeru.
by poemless on Thu May 8th, 2008 at 05:57:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm not running with the Anglo media narrative.

you are the media you consume.

by MillMan (millguy at gmail) on Thu May 8th, 2008 at 06:00:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Stephen Cohen is a rather reliable source on the topic.  One of the very few people I'd trust.  You can dismiss him out of hand, but doing so doesn't make him any less worth reading.

"Pretending that you already know the answer when you don't is not actually very helpful." ~Migeru.
by poemless on Thu May 8th, 2008 at 06:03:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Oh i wasn't talking about him, I got the impression that you thought my views were similar to what is presented in the MSM.

you are the media you consume.

by MillMan (millguy at gmail) on Thu May 8th, 2008 at 06:21:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I do.  Which is why I pointed you to that Nation article. ;)

"Pretending that you already know the answer when you don't is not actually very helpful." ~Migeru.
by poemless on Thu May 8th, 2008 at 06:25:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Just like DoDo said downthread about living standards that collapseing and improving again to a level similar to pre-1990's levels doesn't mean "it hasn't changed", so it is politically and geostrategically.

The fact is that the Soviet Union under Gorbachev was already a sort of regime change, and then you have a couple of constitutional crises: the reactionnary 1991 coup which destroyed the USSR and then the 1993 Russian Constitutional Crisis which changed the constitution of Russia, ended up with prominent politicians in jail and altered the political landscape. Then you had the domestic political ramifications of the Chechen wars, and the transition from Yeltsin to Putin which in my view had the biggest effect in reining in the oligarchy created in the 1990's.

So even if now Russia's international stance looks as confrontational as in the 1980's (though I don't believe for a minute Russia would embark in an imperialist adventure like Afghanistan - and Abkhazia and South Ossetia don't count given that we're talking about ethnic Russians many of which are Russian citizens) it can hardly be said to "not have changed".

On the other hand, the Bush administration is full of cold warriors who cut their teeth in the 1970's fabricating intelligence assesments about the Soviet threat, and even Obama has Zbigniew Brzezinski (who claims to have meddled in Afghanistan to draw the USSR into a war they couldn't win) as foreign policy advisor, so that side hasn't changed. I think Russia finds itself confronting the US despite themselves because of how confrontational the US continues to be.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri May 9th, 2008 at 06:08:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]

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