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Ok.  So if that's what you believe, why did you bother to ask?

Come, my friends, 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world.
by poemless on Thu May 8th, 2008 at 06:02:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
For the purposes of discussion!

Obviously "things" have "changed" enormously. My litmus test is standard of living and political freedom and I discount changes in ideology, hence (I think) our differences on what "change" means.

you are the media you consume.

by MillMan (millguy at gmail) on Thu May 8th, 2008 at 06:25:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]
"Standard of living" and "political freedom" were not your answer when I asked "what"?

The standard of living has improved overall, though in fairness, some of the more rural areas are fairing worse since Communism.  But even that is slowly changing.  I'm not sure we have a lot of information about the standard of living under Communism.  Or how you quantify that.  People are buying homes and cars for the first time.  There is a "middle class" for the first time...  

Political freedom?  Just because it is worse than under Yeltsin (though freedom of speech is not high on your list when you are starving) does not mean it is as bad as it was under Communism.  Russia has one of the most active Internet communities on the planet.  Most of the nationalization of the media has been limited to TV.  At this point, there is no possible way they could return to a Soviet-style repression.

Come, my friends, 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world.

by poemless on Thu May 8th, 2008 at 06:32:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]
In standard of living, there was an enormous change for the worse, then again a change for the better, and ignoring what was in-between and saying "so nothing much changed" will sound enormously arrogant and dismissive for those who lived through it.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Thu May 8th, 2008 at 06:41:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Exactly.

Come, my friends, 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world.
by poemless on Thu May 8th, 2008 at 06:52:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Being contrary for its own sake...fine.

Magnifico said:

I think the New Cold War would need to survive at least one leadership change on both side of the U.S.-Russia equation... Russia has already "changed". So, if relationships do not improve with a new U.S. president in 2009, then it's no longer the New Cold War... it's just Cold War II: The Climate Change.

To which I asked, mostly as an agreement with his post:

Has either country changed significantly at the institutional level since 1990?

The answer, in terms of foreign relations, seems to be no. The US has always been belligerent towards the Soviet Union / Russia, and having "won" the cold war, decided that the rest of the world really does have to do its bidding, and pressed its influence into Eastern Europe and Central Asia. The Soviets were nominally belligerent while in power, but the threat they posed was overstated by the western media outside the nuclear threat, and despite a non-belligerent Russian government today, the nuclear threat still remains, if for no other reason that the continued existence of the missiles.

Somehow this turned into me being insensitive toward the suffering of the people living in the former Soviet Union. Herding cats indeed - we can knick each other with a 1000 cuts, or maybe engage with people who, you know, actually hate Russia, of which there is no shortage.

you are the media you consume.

by MillMan (millguy at gmail) on Thu May 8th, 2008 at 07:15:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

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