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I see, you want to crash our economy and impose your quasi-religious beliefs on others by force. Well, maybe the reason this is not done is because we have constitutions in most European countries, which guarantee certain freedoms?

Lich King/Caribou Barbie 08
Pain brings Katharsis
by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Thu May 8th, 2008 at 08:37:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That may be one of the most disproportionate responses to a comment I've seen in a long time. What on earth are you talking about? I see no link whatsoever between In Wales's comment and your response.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu May 8th, 2008 at 08:56:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You don't see a link?
Other selfish and unnecessary use of land and water resources includes golf courses,
So something which is not necessary is at the same time selfish. And we should not do unnecessary things, even when they are fun, relatively healthy and practically without environmental consequences. You don't think that would crash the economy? When govs reduce the punishment of families, which is given by our institutional framework, e.g. in the retirement system, then this unsustainable and without seeing the wider issues?
Who defines what is unnecessary? You? In Wales? Is it just what you really need to survive? So 90% of what all people in the west do in their daily jobs is just done because of we are so selfish idiots?
If you take the right to tell others in such detail what they are allowed to do and what not, than I should not call that quasi-religious beliefs? If you don't want to use force=state power, I can of course ignore this, but I guess this is not what In Wales wanted.

Lich King/Caribou Barbie 08
Pain brings Katharsis
by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Thu May 8th, 2008 at 09:19:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]
And we should not do unnecessary things, even when they are fun, relatively healthy and practically without environmental consequences.
Are you talking about golf courses in water-poor areas (say, Arizona or Spain)? It is one thing to play golf in the Scottish highlands (marginal land for most uses other than grazing sheep) and a very different one to build (and maintain) a golf course where the natural terrain is not grassy.

Do our Constitutions protect the right to behave unsustainably?

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu May 8th, 2008 at 09:26:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Wales is rather rainy isn't it?

If really Spain or Arizona was meant I apologise for my overreaction, but it is not untypical for ET to accuse something as wasteful, which is not more wasteful than other things done, because it is overproportionally done by relatively rich people.

Lich King/Caribou Barbie 08
Pain brings Katharsis

by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Thu May 8th, 2008 at 09:44:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Is golf a game of the rich in Germany? It's only moderately so in Ireland, with public golf courses and so on.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu May 8th, 2008 at 09:50:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Ireland is also naturally windy, grassy and wet.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu May 8th, 2008 at 09:50:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Sure. Thought they have a bad habit of building fancy courses in scenic locations, which is a bit annoying. I don't think they need a whole lot of irrigation.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu May 8th, 2008 at 09:51:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I just mean that the weather explains how you can afford to have public golf courses.

It's like grass football/rugby/cricket pitches: here in London they're everywhere. As are grass outdoors tennis courses. Every wondered why Wimbledon is played on grass while Roland Garros is played on dirt? At least regulation tennis can be played on dirt where the climate doesn't support it.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu May 8th, 2008 at 10:00:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yup, and I just checked and it appears that a lot of courses do use irrigation systems during drought conditions here. Which isn't all that often. Even in the nicest climates the short, smooth grass needs extra water.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu May 8th, 2008 at 10:03:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]
a lot of courses do use irrigation systems during drought conditions

Thus exacerbating the drought conditions.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu May 8th, 2008 at 10:09:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Don't know what water they're using: they could easily store a lot of it or use other untreated water sources.

Water shortages in Ireland are pretty much due to poor infrastructure investment - as of a few years ago Dublin was losing more water from its old water distribution system then was being used by households.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu May 8th, 2008 at 10:15:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Water shortages in Ireland are pretty much due to poor infrastructure investment - as of a few years ago Dublin was losing more water from its old water distribution system then was being used by households.

Sounds like the situation in London, which leads to a situation where they have to impose hosepipe bans in the summer but at the same time the Victorian water mains are leaky and household water consumption is not metered but paid on a flat fee.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu May 8th, 2008 at 10:22:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Why is grass needed for a golf course anyway? Just because they have lots of grass in Scotland, and so everybody thinks it's needed? Is there any real reason, other than aesthetics, for not having just bare soil (or even sand)?
by gk (g k quattro due due sette "at" gmail.com) on Thu May 8th, 2008 at 10:22:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I would bet it is a game of (relatively) rich German (and other Northern European) retirees in Spain.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu May 8th, 2008 at 09:51:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I think so and certainly most people think so and therefore it probably is, simply because most people wouldn't go to a golf field, if they don't feel to be part of the upper class, even if using the field would be affordable.
I wasn't aware that this is not international given the different way golfers are used for promotion compared with a more normal sport like football.

Lich King/Caribou Barbie 08
Pain brings Katharsis
by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Thu May 8th, 2008 at 11:49:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Rich people are wasteful because they can afford to be, whether or not the community at large can afford them to be.

And, from a global point of view, you and I are rich and wasteful.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu May 8th, 2008 at 09:55:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Constitutions and societies are based on compromises about what is permissible. You seem to think that state force should be used to protect your(?) right to spend as much water as you like to maintain a golf course.  

practically without environmental consequences

If that's the case, then no problem. But what if it isn't?

So 90% of what all people in the west do in their daily jobs is just done because of we are so selfish idiots?

Well, yes. But why restrict it to the West (whatever that is today)?
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu May 8th, 2008 at 09:38:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Certainly there are countries where the agriculture is so unproductive with regard to the use of labour, that most people have to work on the fields to produce food, cloth and a roof on top of everybody, so that even with defining everything else as waste, in those countries most do useful stuff.

Lich King/Caribou Barbie 08
Pain brings Katharsis
by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Thu May 8th, 2008 at 11:52:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Sure, but that's a lot less than not-West.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu May 8th, 2008 at 11:56:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I could have written "in the more or less developed world". That I've written West doesn't mean only West. But it is probably still a significant part of the world which is living close to the edge of survival.

Lich King/Caribou Barbie 08
Pain brings Katharsis
by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Thu May 8th, 2008 at 12:48:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
what???

After the fight against golf coruses, and residences and wasteful agriculture we are having here because we DO NOT have water.. i repeat we do nto have water..., check the diaries or the newes about Barcelona getting ready for water restrictions AT HOME (we have water restriction in resdiences, golf and soem agriculture for months now) this summer if it does not start raining and fast).. how can you say that golf courses are not wasteful?

here they are seen as a sin..pure evil..

It is true that you might be overreacting..but oh boy I think you should live in bartcelona right now.. with the perspetive of not being able to a shower for days to change your opinion.

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Thu May 8th, 2008 at 02:03:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

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