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It is not racism. A careful analysis of the economic consequences yields, that only under very special conditions immigrants can replace a healthy demography. Most immigrants coming to Europe had no proper school education, nor a sense for that education is very important. Furthermore even somewhat qualified immigrants need to stay in Europe when they retire (and consume mostly local products and paying taxes in Europe) for being a gain to our societies, but often they want to go back to their home country.
The flow of necessary immigrants to keep the demography stable is huge and would lead to dramatically increased populations (given realistic immigrant ages, you can't expect all immigrants to come directly after finishing school or university). Such flows of immigrants are very difficult to integrate into our societies, although that maybe easier for countries like France or UK, where immigrants at least often can speak the language of the country.

Economists often ask for lower barriers for highly qualified immigrants, but at the same time will tell you that low qualified immigrants are a bad for the economy.

by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Thu May 8th, 2008 at 08:53:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Why do we need to keep demographics stable? It seems that with proper redistribution policies to ensure the lower end of the income spectrum doesn't fall of the cart we could do well with less total production. Sure, people might have to make do with slightly diminished quantities of lifestyle, but an aging population will surely not keep us from feeding and clothing all, and even maintain some of our luxury indulgences?
by someone (s0me1smail(a)gmail(d)com) on Thu May 8th, 2008 at 09:06:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Why shouldn't demographics be stationary?

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu May 8th, 2008 at 09:30:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]
But in a democratic frame work it is unlikely that you get majorities by telling the people you can come along with less even if you could have more.
And it is a question of speed of change as well. Currently in Germany about 50-60% of the children are born, which would be necessary to keep each generation the same size. 80-90% would still be environmental responsible and would be easier to handle from an economic point of view.
In an aging society feeding and clothing are not the only important issues. (Health) Care for the elderly e.g. is another thing and I don't believe that communism works. So you can not redistribute everything. As not all countries are going to follow, you would see a lot of talented hard working people leave Europe (e.g. to Switzerland).

by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Thu May 8th, 2008 at 09:35:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]
But in a democratic frame work it is unlikely that you get majorities by telling the people you can come along with less even if you could have more.
What if you in fact couldn't have more? The politician that promises more will still get elected.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu May 8th, 2008 at 10:01:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]
An emphasis on higher quality, longer lasting durable goods would help, as would the recapturing of the productivity gains into labor rather than into the investing class.  This would enable us to do at least as well with less effort, and that effort could be spread over more people.

Why shouldn't a car last 20 yrs, and you not have to be continually buying one?  Why should a factory, like the one I used to work in, that needed 4,000 people and now needs only 1500 to produce the same output, still have 4,000 people working less hours yet receiving good benefits.  We shall have less, we had best learn to make better use of what we have-it can easily be sufficient.

"I said, 'Wait a minute, Chester, You know I'm a peaceful man...'" Robbie Robertson

by NearlyNormal on Thu May 8th, 2008 at 04:35:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Actual economists or the ones that write opinion columns in newspapers?

And if we could have references for the "careful analysis" it'd be helpful.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu May 8th, 2008 at 09:09:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]
A link to a book where it is explained is here, certainly there are sources in the book, but I have it not where I am currently.
The study of course is about Germany and orientates on the institutional frame work of Germany, so other countries can have slightly different results, especially  ones with lower social state benefits, which are an important reason for the loss.

by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Thu May 8th, 2008 at 09:24:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]
What would a healthy, stationary demography look like given the current mortality rates by age in, say, West Germany?

Not like the traditional pyramid. but more like an obelisk.

Why do qualified immigrants need to stay after they retire? If qualified immigrants go back to their countries of origin they pay taxes into the system when they're working and don't draw benefits when they're old.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu May 8th, 2008 at 09:30:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Define "stationary demography". In a society with steady life expectancy increase, a generational stable society still grows. So the base really has to be a little bit smaller than the upper stocks.

                   |
                  |||
                 |||||
                |||||||
                |||||||
               ||||||||| age phase out
               |||||||||
               |||||||||
                |||||||
                |||||||
                 |||||    
                 |||||   reduced base, making up for increased lifetime

However, fertility was not always the same. So there are e.g. babyboomers. There outphasing has not yet really started, so at the moment the number of children makes nearly up for the number of dying people (partially less than expected because of longer life spans), but when the baby boomer generation dies, there most likely won't be a baby boom of corresponding magnitude.

by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Thu May 8th, 2008 at 11:31:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]
So, isn't it possible that the "pensions crisis" is simply a transitory phenomenon due to the baby boomers and that given the size of a "sustainable" population the "right" thing to do would be to let the population shrink after the baby boomers are gone?

In the meantime, the "pensions crisis" might be a political problem, not really an economic impossibility to provide a dignified standard of living for everyone. All economics is political economy.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu May 8th, 2008 at 02:38:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It depends on what you mean with transitional. Life expectancy may increase for a long time.
Lower birth rates will increase the the old-age dependency ratio asymptotically to a certain value, if not accompanied with an increase in life expectancy.

More concrete I have from destatis the picture below. It shows in blue the number of people older than 65 years per 100 people between 20 and 65. In green the number of people below 20, as the sum of these people is expected to be those who can't earn their own income. For the modelling it is assumed, that net immigration will be around the value of the last ten years (so slightly higher than currently), constant fertility and some reasonable assumption about life expectancy.

What makes economic stress is not the absolut level, but the change, if one assumes productivity gains. So from the mid 20s to the mid 30s Germany will suffer, but untill about 2020, there it will be less painfull than the last 15 years. (In Germany the baby boomers started later than in the US, only around the mid 50s, so they start to ordinary retire around 2020)

by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Thu May 8th, 2008 at 09:48:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
If the life expectancy keeps increasing eventually retirement age would have to be delayed to 75 or something. But then you'd have a problem of unemployment in the under-35 age range. The elephant in the living room is the fact of overproductivity which Metatone keeps hammering on.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri May 9th, 2008 at 03:13:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]
"If qualified immigrants go back to their countries of origin they pay taxes into the system when they're working and don't draw benefits when they're old."

I don't know if you want to strip people from their social security retirement payments, just because they leave the country.
But there is certainly a level of qualification and earnings, where you have contributed your share by having paid taxes, yes.

by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Thu May 8th, 2008 at 11:55:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]

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