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Technically and legally could the WTO regulate certain staple crops and remove the monopoly of seed ownership?  

As you've pointed out before, owning seed means control over that part of the food chain.  I find the idea of multinational companies having that kind of power over staple crops and who can grow them and how much the seeds cost absolutely abhorrent.

Population is another issue - where we have decling populations in some European countries due to a lower birth rate, why then do Governments insist on encouraging people to have more children purely to solve the pensions crisis and welfare costs associated with the eldery population? Can Government policy be adjusted to take a longer term and more sustainable view on wider issues?

Other selfish and unnecessary use of land and water resources includes golf courses, as well as the alarming trend to grow crops for fuel even though it's apparent that there is not enough space for both fuel and food to be grown as crops.

How about WTO/WHO leading the way on encouraging Governments to encourage people to cut down on eating meat?  This ties in with the preventative health agenda, to increase physical activity and healthy eating.  Maybe we need to bring rationing back in?!

Thanks for putting this together, afew.

Ad astra per aspera

by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Thu May 8th, 2008 at 05:06:50 AM EST
where we have decling populations in some European countries due to a lower birth rate, why then do Governments insist on encouraging people to have more children

Racism. Proper native babies are much better than those nasty brown immigrant ones - I hear they're born with horns.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu May 8th, 2008 at 07:25:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It is not racism. A careful analysis of the economic consequences yields, that only under very special conditions immigrants can replace a healthy demography. Most immigrants coming to Europe had no proper school education, nor a sense for that education is very important. Furthermore even somewhat qualified immigrants need to stay in Europe when they retire (and consume mostly local products and paying taxes in Europe) for being a gain to our societies, but often they want to go back to their home country.
The flow of necessary immigrants to keep the demography stable is huge and would lead to dramatically increased populations (given realistic immigrant ages, you can't expect all immigrants to come directly after finishing school or university). Such flows of immigrants are very difficult to integrate into our societies, although that maybe easier for countries like France or UK, where immigrants at least often can speak the language of the country.

Economists often ask for lower barriers for highly qualified immigrants, but at the same time will tell you that low qualified immigrants are a bad for the economy.

by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Thu May 8th, 2008 at 08:53:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Why do we need to keep demographics stable? It seems that with proper redistribution policies to ensure the lower end of the income spectrum doesn't fall of the cart we could do well with less total production. Sure, people might have to make do with slightly diminished quantities of lifestyle, but an aging population will surely not keep us from feeding and clothing all, and even maintain some of our luxury indulgences?
by someone (s0me1smail(a)gmail(d)com) on Thu May 8th, 2008 at 09:06:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Why shouldn't demographics be stationary?

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu May 8th, 2008 at 09:30:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]
But in a democratic frame work it is unlikely that you get majorities by telling the people you can come along with less even if you could have more.
And it is a question of speed of change as well. Currently in Germany about 50-60% of the children are born, which would be necessary to keep each generation the same size. 80-90% would still be environmental responsible and would be easier to handle from an economic point of view.
In an aging society feeding and clothing are not the only important issues. (Health) Care for the elderly e.g. is another thing and I don't believe that communism works. So you can not redistribute everything. As not all countries are going to follow, you would see a lot of talented hard working people leave Europe (e.g. to Switzerland).

by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Thu May 8th, 2008 at 09:35:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]
But in a democratic frame work it is unlikely that you get majorities by telling the people you can come along with less even if you could have more.
What if you in fact couldn't have more? The politician that promises more will still get elected.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu May 8th, 2008 at 10:01:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]
An emphasis on higher quality, longer lasting durable goods would help, as would the recapturing of the productivity gains into labor rather than into the investing class.  This would enable us to do at least as well with less effort, and that effort could be spread over more people.

Why shouldn't a car last 20 yrs, and you not have to be continually buying one?  Why should a factory, like the one I used to work in, that needed 4,000 people and now needs only 1500 to produce the same output, still have 4,000 people working less hours yet receiving good benefits.  We shall have less, we had best learn to make better use of what we have-it can easily be sufficient.

"I said, 'Wait a minute, Chester, You know I'm a peaceful man...'" Robbie Robertson

by NearlyNormal on Thu May 8th, 2008 at 04:35:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Actual economists or the ones that write opinion columns in newspapers?

And if we could have references for the "careful analysis" it'd be helpful.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu May 8th, 2008 at 09:09:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]
A link to a book where it is explained is here, certainly there are sources in the book, but I have it not where I am currently.
The study of course is about Germany and orientates on the institutional frame work of Germany, so other countries can have slightly different results, especially  ones with lower social state benefits, which are an important reason for the loss.

by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Thu May 8th, 2008 at 09:24:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]
What would a healthy, stationary demography look like given the current mortality rates by age in, say, West Germany?

Not like the traditional pyramid. but more like an obelisk.

Why do qualified immigrants need to stay after they retire? If qualified immigrants go back to their countries of origin they pay taxes into the system when they're working and don't draw benefits when they're old.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu May 8th, 2008 at 09:30:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Define "stationary demography". In a society with steady life expectancy increase, a generational stable society still grows. So the base really has to be a little bit smaller than the upper stocks.

                   |
                  |||
                 |||||
                |||||||
                |||||||
               ||||||||| age phase out
               |||||||||
               |||||||||
                |||||||
                |||||||
                 |||||    
                 |||||   reduced base, making up for increased lifetime

However, fertility was not always the same. So there are e.g. babyboomers. There outphasing has not yet really started, so at the moment the number of children makes nearly up for the number of dying people (partially less than expected because of longer life spans), but when the baby boomer generation dies, there most likely won't be a baby boom of corresponding magnitude.

by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Thu May 8th, 2008 at 11:31:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]
So, isn't it possible that the "pensions crisis" is simply a transitory phenomenon due to the baby boomers and that given the size of a "sustainable" population the "right" thing to do would be to let the population shrink after the baby boomers are gone?

In the meantime, the "pensions crisis" might be a political problem, not really an economic impossibility to provide a dignified standard of living for everyone. All economics is political economy.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu May 8th, 2008 at 02:38:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It depends on what you mean with transitional. Life expectancy may increase for a long time.
Lower birth rates will increase the the old-age dependency ratio asymptotically to a certain value, if not accompanied with an increase in life expectancy.

More concrete I have from destatis the picture below. It shows in blue the number of people older than 65 years per 100 people between 20 and 65. In green the number of people below 20, as the sum of these people is expected to be those who can't earn their own income. For the modelling it is assumed, that net immigration will be around the value of the last ten years (so slightly higher than currently), constant fertility and some reasonable assumption about life expectancy.

What makes economic stress is not the absolut level, but the change, if one assumes productivity gains. So from the mid 20s to the mid 30s Germany will suffer, but untill about 2020, there it will be less painfull than the last 15 years. (In Germany the baby boomers started later than in the US, only around the mid 50s, so they start to ordinary retire around 2020)

by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Thu May 8th, 2008 at 09:48:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
If the life expectancy keeps increasing eventually retirement age would have to be delayed to 75 or something. But then you'd have a problem of unemployment in the under-35 age range. The elephant in the living room is the fact of overproductivity which Metatone keeps hammering on.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri May 9th, 2008 at 03:13:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]
"If qualified immigrants go back to their countries of origin they pay taxes into the system when they're working and don't draw benefits when they're old."

I don't know if you want to strip people from their social security retirement payments, just because they leave the country.
But there is certainly a level of qualification and earnings, where you have contributed your share by having paid taxes, yes.

by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Thu May 8th, 2008 at 11:55:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I see, you want to crash our economy and impose your quasi-religious beliefs on others by force. Well, maybe the reason this is not done is because we have constitutions in most European countries, which guarantee certain freedoms?

by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Thu May 8th, 2008 at 08:37:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That may be one of the most disproportionate responses to a comment I've seen in a long time. What on earth are you talking about? I see no link whatsoever between In Wales's comment and your response.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu May 8th, 2008 at 08:56:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You don't see a link?
Other selfish and unnecessary use of land and water resources includes golf courses,
So something which is not necessary is at the same time selfish. And we should not do unnecessary things, even when they are fun, relatively healthy and practically without environmental consequences. You don't think that would crash the economy? When govs reduce the punishment of families, which is given by our institutional framework, e.g. in the retirement system, then this unsustainable and without seeing the wider issues?
Who defines what is unnecessary? You? In Wales? Is it just what you really need to survive? So 90% of what all people in the west do in their daily jobs is just done because of we are so selfish idiots?
If you take the right to tell others in such detail what they are allowed to do and what not, than I should not call that quasi-religious beliefs? If you don't want to use force=state power, I can of course ignore this, but I guess this is not what In Wales wanted.

by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Thu May 8th, 2008 at 09:19:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]
And we should not do unnecessary things, even when they are fun, relatively healthy and practically without environmental consequences.
Are you talking about golf courses in water-poor areas (say, Arizona or Spain)? It is one thing to play golf in the Scottish highlands (marginal land for most uses other than grazing sheep) and a very different one to build (and maintain) a golf course where the natural terrain is not grassy.

Do our Constitutions protect the right to behave unsustainably?

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu May 8th, 2008 at 09:26:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Wales is rather rainy isn't it?

If really Spain or Arizona was meant I apologise for my overreaction, but it is not untypical for ET to accuse something as wasteful, which is not more wasteful than other things done, because it is overproportionally done by relatively rich people.

by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Thu May 8th, 2008 at 09:44:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Is golf a game of the rich in Germany? It's only moderately so in Ireland, with public golf courses and so on.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu May 8th, 2008 at 09:50:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Ireland is also naturally windy, grassy and wet.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu May 8th, 2008 at 09:50:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Sure. Thought they have a bad habit of building fancy courses in scenic locations, which is a bit annoying. I don't think they need a whole lot of irrigation.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu May 8th, 2008 at 09:51:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I just mean that the weather explains how you can afford to have public golf courses.

It's like grass football/rugby/cricket pitches: here in London they're everywhere. As are grass outdoors tennis courses. Every wondered why Wimbledon is played on grass while Roland Garros is played on dirt? At least regulation tennis can be played on dirt where the climate doesn't support it.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu May 8th, 2008 at 10:00:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yup, and I just checked and it appears that a lot of courses do use irrigation systems during drought conditions here. Which isn't all that often. Even in the nicest climates the short, smooth grass needs extra water.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu May 8th, 2008 at 10:03:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]
a lot of courses do use irrigation systems during drought conditions

Thus exacerbating the drought conditions.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu May 8th, 2008 at 10:09:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Don't know what water they're using: they could easily store a lot of it or use other untreated water sources.

Water shortages in Ireland are pretty much due to poor infrastructure investment - as of a few years ago Dublin was losing more water from its old water distribution system then was being used by households.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu May 8th, 2008 at 10:15:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Water shortages in Ireland are pretty much due to poor infrastructure investment - as of a few years ago Dublin was losing more water from its old water distribution system then was being used by households.

Sounds like the situation in London, which leads to a situation where they have to impose hosepipe bans in the summer but at the same time the Victorian water mains are leaky and household water consumption is not metered but paid on a flat fee.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu May 8th, 2008 at 10:22:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Why is grass needed for a golf course anyway? Just because they have lots of grass in Scotland, and so everybody thinks it's needed? Is there any real reason, other than aesthetics, for not having just bare soil (or even sand)?
by gk (g k quattro due due sette "at" gmail.com) on Thu May 8th, 2008 at 10:22:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I would bet it is a game of (relatively) rich German (and other Northern European) retirees in Spain.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu May 8th, 2008 at 09:51:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I think so and certainly most people think so and therefore it probably is, simply because most people wouldn't go to a golf field, if they don't feel to be part of the upper class, even if using the field would be affordable.
I wasn't aware that this is not international given the different way golfers are used for promotion compared with a more normal sport like football.

by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Thu May 8th, 2008 at 11:49:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Rich people are wasteful because they can afford to be, whether or not the community at large can afford them to be.

And, from a global point of view, you and I are rich and wasteful.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu May 8th, 2008 at 09:55:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Constitutions and societies are based on compromises about what is permissible. You seem to think that state force should be used to protect your(?) right to spend as much water as you like to maintain a golf course.  

practically without environmental consequences

If that's the case, then no problem. But what if it isn't?

So 90% of what all people in the west do in their daily jobs is just done because of we are so selfish idiots?

Well, yes. But why restrict it to the West (whatever that is today)?
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu May 8th, 2008 at 09:38:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Certainly there are countries where the agriculture is so unproductive with regard to the use of labour, that most people have to work on the fields to produce food, cloth and a roof on top of everybody, so that even with defining everything else as waste, in those countries most do useful stuff.

by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Thu May 8th, 2008 at 11:52:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Sure, but that's a lot less than not-West.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu May 8th, 2008 at 11:56:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I could have written "in the more or less developed world". That I've written West doesn't mean only West. But it is probably still a significant part of the world which is living close to the edge of survival.

by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Thu May 8th, 2008 at 12:48:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
what???

After the fight against golf coruses, and residences and wasteful agriculture we are having here because we DO NOT have water.. i repeat we do nto have water..., check the diaries or the newes about Barcelona getting ready for water restrictions AT HOME (we have water restriction in resdiences, golf and soem agriculture for months now) this summer if it does not start raining and fast).. how can you say that golf courses are not wasteful?

here they are seen as a sin..pure evil..

It is true that you might be overreacting..but oh boy I think you should live in bartcelona right now.. with the perspetive of not being able to a shower for days to change your opinion.

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Thu May 8th, 2008 at 02:03:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
There are three levels of most questions "can the WTO ... ?"

Procedural level: under the current agreements in force, can they revise the way they enforce those agreements to permit ...

Huh, I don't know. I have been more focused on what horrible protectionism corporations are trying to smuggle into the Doha round, marketed as "property rights protection to enable free trade in Intellectual Property".

It is straightforward that if the individual member states where IP has been granted elect to exclude something from their IP system, then that flows through to whatever WTO agreements are in place to respect the IP entitlements granted in other member states. That's how the agreement on AIDs drugs in low-income nations was arrived at ... the member states that had granted the Intellectual Property arrived at an agreement on the terms and conditions where a less restrictive freedom of use would apply. Once the member states have agreed to that, there is no longer an IP infringement to bring up through the WTO mechanisms.

Off the top of my head, though, I do not know how much leeway the WTO itself has to step in and exclude something in particular. It probably has more rights than are exercised, because WTO trade tribunals have a history of absurdly restrictive interpretations of public interest exceptions.

The second level is the technical possibilities of what the agreement itself can do. Since they are arrived at by consensus, they can only be changed by consensus, which means getting this kind of agreement as part of the Doha round. The Doha round is such a stinker that we would probably still be better off if it fails to get through then getting it through with that concession ... but in any event, if its agreed to, which means a new consensus, then yes, automatically the WTO would no longer be available to try to enforce Intellectual Property in the areas that are excluded.

The third level is whether something is politically possible ... that is, whether there is any bloc that might be able to present this as an item it would like to see added, and in return for which it would be willing to accept something that it has refused to accept to date.

That would, I think, be the bloc that contains China, India and Brazil (and a host of others, but those are the three driving forces in the bloc). And, yes, they might be willing to take this on board, but only if they are seriously interested in the Doho round going anywhere. They might just be playing a delaying game, hoping for a Democratic administration in the US to allow them to stand down from guarding against the threat of Doha for a while.

Utsukushii kereba sore de ii

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Sat May 10th, 2008 at 12:51:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

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