Display:
Local in the strict sense of home, village, rural area, suburb (even urban food production).

This could be encouraged and coordinated with "bigger" farming by national policy. But better perhaps regional in the sense regions of the world. See Michel Barnier's position in favour of regional common agricultural policies.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu May 8th, 2008 at 06:23:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Right. Well I don't see local food self-sufficiency being the slightest bit efficient in lots of the world. Ireland would probably have to convert to something like a potato monoculture again, for a start. Which has its own problems ...

Trade is not intrinsically a bad thing: moving flour slowly (train and sail boat will do!) from continental Europe to Ireland and shipping meat back seems sustainable if you're not assuming civilisational collapse. Flying lettuce around the planet is another issue, of course.

I guess what I'm thinking here is some form of subsidiarity for food - it should be produced as locally as makes sense. I suspect a lot of this would be sorted out simply by pricing the externalities into the shipping and production methods. Maybe a properly regulated market is the best way of doing the job?

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu May 8th, 2008 at 07:23:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]
What does the slightest bit efficient mean?

What is efficiency?

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu May 8th, 2008 at 09:27:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Efficient in the sense of getting as much food output as we can from the available resources.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu May 8th, 2008 at 09:42:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Then I don't see what is inefficient about people producing part of their needs (as far as possible) where they are, and with encouraging small farming in the less developed countries rather than see the land abandoned and the cities grow. While obviously understanding that what can be produced is more limited in some places than others, and without proposing to eliminate trade in favour of "autarchy".

Understanding also that regional policy, (eg CAP), can deal with the coordination of a lot of the differences between local capacities.

How far do you think that by "efficiency", you are in fact thinking of comparative advantage?

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu May 8th, 2008 at 11:57:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Being locally self-sufficient means (to me) producing all their food locally, which is what I don't think is practical.

Isn't comparative advantage more-or-less about efficiency?

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu May 8th, 2008 at 12:09:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I said "local and regional". I don't expect it's possible in most cases to be locally self-sufficient. I do think the EEC attained a fair degree of self-suffiency through the CAP (with problems and unintended consequences, sure).

What kind of efficiency is comparative advantage about?

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu May 8th, 2008 at 12:25:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Local food self-sufficiency is not an absolute requirement, its a benchmark. Every locality should pursue as much of the goal as they can, because for those areas that will certainly fall short, the amount by which they fall short will determine the amount by which surplus locales must exceed their requirements.

However, an urban market ... whether a market in a city or the market consisting of a small town ... is an essential element in sustainable agrarian development, so the level at which food self-sufficiency becomes a goal to consider adopting is the local region, consisting of an urban core and its rural hinterland.

Of course, legalists always want boundaries for definitions, and so units of analysis like local regions give them hissy fits, because its hierarchical ... one local region consisting of a small town and surrounding countryside is part of the hinterland consisting of a small city and its surround small towns and countryside, and that is part of the hinterland of a large city and its surrounding small cities and their surrounding small towns and countryside.

And of course in many high income nations we have planted large, difficult to heat and cool single occupancy homes directly across that countryside, so we have to learn how to plant around those kinds of obstacles.

Every large nation must aim for food self-sufficiency. All of its main regions must aim for as much food self-sufficiency as it can achieve, and some of its regions must arrive at a surplus to the extent that some of its regions fall short.

And every local region must aim to be an active center of agriculture development in its rural hinterland ... even if the peasantry in the rural hinterland presently drive SUV's to work in cubicles eighty kilometres away.


I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Sat May 10th, 2008 at 08:28:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't see the point of encouraging 'local' food production. Properly taxing carbon will support it to some extent and a more rational adjustment of water usage will do the same in some regions while doing the reverse in others. Encouraging a more environmentally rational social geography will discourage or encourage it, depending on what one means by 'local'. It will make personal gardening  and neighbourhood farming less likely due to higher densities, but it will also free up some of the land around cities currently used for suburban sprawl.  However, an attempt to push it as an end in itself will often have a negative effect on fighting global warming and resource efficiency.
by MarekNYC on Thu May 8th, 2008 at 01:08:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
a negative effect on fighting global warming and resource efficiency

Because of..?

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu May 8th, 2008 at 03:28:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
In developed countries it means more sprawl, i.e. more areas that are dependent on driving a lot and where it is very difficult to create an effective transport system. You save a little bit on food production but lose big overall. It also ends up wasting arable land because that spread out population is going to require a greater per capita amount of land used for non agricultural purposes.

Unless that is you simply mean local in the sense more stuff from within a few hundred kilometers and less stuff coming in from halfway across the world. If so I agree, at least in areas that have plenty of suitable land nearby. For places like the US southwest where that isn't the case you'll actually see less of that sort of 'local', though what agriculture there is in such areas will be more oriented towards the local market rather than commodity production as it is now.

by MarekNYC on Thu May 8th, 2008 at 03:46:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
By local in developed countries I mean just using what you can near where you are, not seeking to move out just so you can grow vegetables. I think it's more important in less developed countries, where peasant farmers need to be able to stay on the land, produce food for themselves and their local area, plus some cash crops, rather than give up and move to the megapolises.

In the second sense (your paragraph 2), I'd use "regional" rather than local. But yes, I am against consecrating certain regions of the world "food-producing" and shipping food across the planet. To feed the world, I think we should be producing food everywhere, and aiming at reducing transport.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu May 8th, 2008 at 04:00:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It may encourage clustered networks of infill development around cities, but that is no sprawl.

You are looking at one dimension of the problem, density per square kilometer at the level of a country/district ...

... but sprawl is not simply having people live outside a densely urbanized large metropolis.

Its having them live outside of a densely urbanized large metropolis, at low densities per hectare for the median occupied hectare.

Clustered suburban villages with occupied densities of 400/km^2 spread across a former suburban hinterland surrounded by truck gardens, with the occupants of the former suburban sprawl going to the closest suburban village for their main jumping off point for the regional transport system ... whether commuting to work elsewhere, traveling for shopping, education, leisure, or collecting items they have purchased ...

... that's not suburban sprawl.

But if we are going to continue having large numbers of people living in large cities ... IOW, by "going to continue", if we are going to live in that way sustainably ... then that kind of settlement system is going to have to surround those cities, because the current system of flying fresh strawberries from Chile for a supermarket in Northeast Ohio is a system that is premised on cheap and abundant energy resources ... and its economic growth is therefore premised on an inexhaustible supply of cheap and abundant energy.


I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Sat May 10th, 2008 at 08:42:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Display:
Login
. Make a new account
. Reset password
Recommended Diaries
Clipping the wings of a judge
by Migeru - Feb 10
42 comments

Sarkozy: Enemies Ahoy!
by afew - Feb 10
27 comments

Hunger March wins PR battle
by DoDo - Feb 9
3 comments

Romania: protests change government
by DoDo - Feb 8
6 comments

LQD: Unsustainable irrigation
by Melanchthon - Feb 9

Murdoch - Outsourcing and Hubris
by ceebs - Feb 3
18 comments

Obama wins GOP Primaries (to date)
by Frank Schnittger - Feb 8
9 comments

Bristol Pound
by ChrisCook - Feb 7
14 comments

Recent Diaries
Sarkozy: Enemies Ahoy!
by afew - Feb 10
27 comments

Clipping the wings of a judge
by Migeru - Feb 10
42 comments

LQD: Unsustainable irrigation
by Melanchthon - Feb 9

Hunger March wins PR battle
by DoDo - Feb 9
3 comments

Obama wins GOP Primaries (to date)
by Frank Schnittger - Feb 8
9 comments

Romania: protests change government
by DoDo - Feb 8
6 comments

Answers to the Renewable Energy Consultation
by Luis de Sousa - Feb 7

Bristol Pound
by ChrisCook - Feb 7
14 comments

The Imitation Of Germany
by afew - Feb 4
31 comments

Strange Fruit
by Frank Schnittger - Feb 4
14 comments

Murdoch - Outsourcing and Hubris
by ceebs - Feb 3
18 comments

Mismatch with the Natural Gas Market
by Luis de Sousa - Feb 3
22 comments

The Future of Economics
by ARGeezer - Feb 2
191 comments

Desert Island Discs - Helen's distortions
by Helen - Jan 31
48 comments

Gorila
by DoDo - Jan 29
14 comments

Rail News Blogging #7
by DoDo - Jan 29
15 comments

Obama's State Of The Union: LQD
by Crazy Horse - Jan 25
74 comments

Democracy Technology
by gmoke - Jan 24
1 comment

The Hydrogen dream
by Luis de Sousa - Jan 24
49 comments

ET Paris Meet-Up 2012 (2 UPDATE)
by afew - Jan 23
113 comments

More Diaries...
Occasional Series