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Well, I passed my Cambridge English Proficiency Examination at the age of 16 without mastering them and that was half a lifetime away and before I spent a month in the US on a high-school exchange... I guess not, is the answer.

I would put phrasal verbs in the same category as learning vocabulary - it's something you acquire over the long term, gradually. The added difficulty is that the verb and the preposition can be separated and also sometimes the ambiguity between a standalone preposition and a preposition that is part of the verb.

Another thing you only learn through exposure, if that, is what "sounds natural" over and above being grammatically correct. And idioms, too. And sometimes even after many years you still get caught in idioms such as "I hear you" vs. "I can hear you" (this happened to me once not so long ago, to general hilarity).

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Jun 1st, 2008 at 12:50:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Oh, BTW, I hate the wiki article on prasal verbs I linked to above: they seem to throw in just about every combination of verb + particle whether or not this changes the meaning of the root verb, which sort of makes the concept pointless.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Jun 1st, 2008 at 01:12:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Right, actual language use can bear little congruence to "correct" language rules.

Then toss in the American/English differences and things can get sticky.  My favorite example is, "I'm stuffed."

American = "The meal you served filled my stomach to fullness"

English = something rather different

;-)

A doo run-run-run, a doo run-run

by ATinNM on Sun Jun 1st, 2008 at 01:22:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That one's very context dependent. What's confusing isn't just that verbs and adverbs and adjectives collide and bounce off each other promiscuously in English, but that some idioms are only idiomatic in very specific contexts.

English people - even polite English people - wouldn't often say 'I'm stuffed' to mean 'I'm screwed.'

But they might say 'You're stuffed' or 'We're stuffed' or 'They're stuffed.'

Or they could say 'Well, that's me stuffed.'

Or 'I'm seriously stuffed.'

But without modification in the first person 'I'm stuffed' usually just means 'I'm full.'

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Sun Jun 1st, 2008 at 03:23:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Interesting.  My father stationed in the UK during WW 2 used that expression after a dinner in a private house and got strange, somewhat strained, looks from his host and family.  

Wonder if the American usage has spread through films/books?

A doo run-run-run, a doo run-run

by ATinNM on Sun Jun 1st, 2008 at 03:29:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]
English has changed since then. 'I'm stuffed' sounds quite posh and formal, and possibly always did, so you'd get different reactions depending on context.

Today English is much more about exaggeration - hence 'seriously, 'so', 'totally', etc.

This makes machine translation hard because you don't just have to parse the words, you have to parse that specific kind of formation, and also know something about the class and age of the person speaking.

This is where machine translation goes wrong - a lot of communication is at least as much about role play with canned phrases and constructions as about grammar.

For spoken language you can't make sense of the meaning just from the grammar rules on their own. You need to know the role play context and also have a library of current constructions.

Written language is simpler because it's more formal and structured, but you can still fall over some of the wackier constructions that turn up.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Sun Jun 1st, 2008 at 07:23:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I grew up in a family that rarely said anything simple like 'Could you close the door, please' - it would be 'put wood in t'hole' (with a Yorkshire accent) or 'Is there a draught in here?'. It was all a game. My father was an uncontrollable punner. A kind of Corporate Ronnie Barker.

I thought it was normal that one could have fun with language. It wasn't till high school that I found it necessary to restrict the fun a bit. But that 'fun with language' of my childhood remains a major component of my writing today, though I find it harder in Finnish because you can't mistreat it in the same way and still expect to make sense.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Mon Jun 2nd, 2008 at 09:52:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]
In English "I'm stuffed" has both meanings, depending on the context and tone ...
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Sun Jun 1st, 2008 at 03:25:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Another example of English/American usage is "a pack of fags".

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Jun 1st, 2008 at 03:53:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
As an impoverished art student I used to eat faggots quite often.

And what about the English biscuit company who failed to export their main product to the US - Ginger Nuts.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Mon Jun 2nd, 2008 at 09:55:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Or to use a prepositional verb, compare and contrast American and English "knocked up."
by rifek on Wed Jun 4th, 2008 at 11:12:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]

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