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Put it this way: if you live far from public transport and drive a massively inefficient car, it takes quite a while to change things to a new price regime - for a start you have to accept that the price regime is here to stay, then you have to replace your car or move or find other solutions.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Jun 10th, 2008 at 06:08:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Which is why the discourse of "serious" people that the situation is temporary is so problematic, because it helps prevent such medium term change as people are told that the current situation is a temporary aberration.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Tue Jun 10th, 2008 at 06:16:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It depends what they're saying is temporary: US$130 might be. US$100 probably isn't.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Jun 10th, 2008 at 06:24:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Shades of the Global Warming debate...

Those with a vested interest in the status quo will use any argument they can muster to suggest this is just temporary.

Those with a vested interest in reform will use any argument they can muster to suggest this is a long-term situation and likely to get worse.

So when someone comes with facts in support of one or other position, how do you tell whether they have an axe to grind, or are being selective or falling prey to confirmation bias?

And when the two camps above hit upon suitable frames where their preferred policy conclusion follows more easily, you'll have a clash of frames and no debate will be possible.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jun 10th, 2008 at 06:44:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Migeru:
Those with a vested interest in reform will use any argument they can muster to suggest this is a long-term situation and likely to get worse.

A vested interest in survival, surely?

It's not story-telling - it's the difference between people who can do rational planning, and people who don't see why they should have to.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Tue Jun 10th, 2008 at 07:24:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That, too.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jun 10th, 2008 at 07:25:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]
But more like "survival of the most people possible". Those with "a vested interest in the status quo" think they'll come up on top of any collapse of the dung pile.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jun 10th, 2008 at 07:29:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]
How expensive does petrol have to become before it's cheaper to buy a new car and/or move than it is to keep paying higher prices?

An efficient new car and/or a move will typically cost thousands, so there isn't a huge amount of elasticity there. Assuming people can do the numbers, the pain has to be severe before they're forced to change. Also a lot of oil goes to industry, which is even less flexible.

So I'm not expecting prices to decrease. It's going to be months before demand reduction in the West has an effect on price, and it's not clear that China and India won't make up the slack regardless.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Tue Jun 10th, 2008 at 06:20:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It's not clear that they will either.

People are getting tunnel vision.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Jun 10th, 2008 at 06:23:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]
China's oil consumption hits record high in Q1_English_Xinhua

    BEIJING, April 29 (Xinhua) -- Soaring oil prices have not slowed China's consumption of oil as statistics show that China's apparent consumption of crude oil and refined oil products both hit record highs in the first quarter of the year.

    According to statistics released Tuesday by the China Petroleum and Chemical Industry Association (CPCIA), China's apparent consumption of oil products composed of gasoline, diesel and kerosene rose by 16.5 percent year on year to 52.73 million tonnes in the first three months, and crude oil, rose by eight percent to91.8 million tonnes.

    The "apparent consumption" represents the sum of net imports and output and could be taken as an index for the real oil consumption excluding inventory.

    The growth of oil products consumption was a record high and much higher than the same period of last year, which was only 3.6 percent, said Shu Zhaoxia, professor of the Economics and Development Research Institute of China Petrochemical Corporation (Sinopec Group). Sinopec Group is China's top oil refiner.

    The growth of crude oil consumption was 2.5 percentage points higher than a year ago.

    State ceilings on prices of domestic oil products was the major reason contributing to China's surging oil consumption in the first quarter.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Tue Jun 10th, 2008 at 06:35:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]
How long can they afford to do that for?
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Jun 10th, 2008 at 06:41:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]
With the huge ocean of dollars that China's currency reserves are floating in, about as long as they want to.
by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Tue Jun 10th, 2008 at 07:17:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Oh, so now I'm not wrong for saying that?

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jun 10th, 2008 at 07:24:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
"How expensive does petrol have to become before it's cheaper to buy a new car and/or move than it is to keep paying higher prices?"

In the previous energy crises in the U.S., the problem was not one of high prices but of unavailability. It didn't matter how much money you had, there simply wasn't any gas at the gas station.

In that case, the cost of a newer car is irrelevant.

by asdf on Wed Jun 11th, 2008 at 12:28:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That was because the fools interfered with the very efficient gasoline market.

Price controls-> shortages.

There were no price controls during the second oil crisis in 1979, and there were no shortages either.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Wed Jun 11th, 2008 at 07:38:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Price controls without by-fiat rationing creates shortages.

But then again, absence of price controls creates by-wealth rationing.

- Jake

If you only spend 20 minutes of the rest of your life on economics, go spend them here.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Wed Jun 11th, 2008 at 08:26:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]
But without price controls you can still tax the sales and use the proceeds to support those who can't afford the product.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jun 11th, 2008 at 08:28:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]
If there is less stuff to go around than people wish to use, you are not going to escape rationing, one way or the other. No amount of moving funny-money around by way of tax-and-subsidise systems will make more stuff in and of itself.

So you'll get a milder form of by-wealth rationing - one in which the people who are flat out of luck are at least compensated for their being flat out of luck.

Did I miss anything?

- Jake

If you only spend 20 minutes of the rest of your life on economics, go spend them here.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Wed Jun 11th, 2008 at 09:05:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Rationing by price is by far the most efficient way of rationing when it comes to gasoline.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Wed Jun 11th, 2008 at 09:28:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Should we look for "efficient", or should we look for "fair"?

After all, no citizen has an innate claim to more of the stuff than any other, given that it's all imported and thus heavilty dependent on public infrastructure and institutions to be available to us...

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Wed Jun 11th, 2008 at 12:55:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Let's not mix up efficiency with fairness. Gasoline is most efficiently distributed using price as the rationing variable, as are almost all goods.

Fairness we get through the progressiveness of the income tax system.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Wed Jun 11th, 2008 at 07:06:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]
This would seem to argue against prices going down in the medium term, because people need to change their habits in order for that to happen.

By the time the price is ready to go down by 75%, the decline in world oil production or the increase in demand from developing countries will have picked up the slack.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jun 10th, 2008 at 06:24:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Assuming that the high prices haven't collapsed their economies.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Jun 10th, 2008 at 06:26:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, at that point we have to start getting actual macroeconomic data and doing the numbers to figure out where the strongest stresses are and thus where the likely breaking points are.

This situation is so past linear.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jun 10th, 2008 at 06:31:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Way past linear.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Jun 10th, 2008 at 06:35:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]
To paraphrase Amartya Sen on famines, if oil prices crash an economy it will be for political reasons.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jun 10th, 2008 at 06:32:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Does that follow?
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Jun 10th, 2008 at 06:37:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It depends on the definition of crash.

You can have a decline in GDP without large swathes of the population falling into poverty, but it takes a massively interventionist economic policy on the part of everyone.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jun 10th, 2008 at 06:41:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]

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