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Demand reduction is fine in theory, but bankruptcy and possible food riots aren't a good way to manage it.

Why would you want to manage it? I thought the prevailing wisdom here was that laissez-faire was the way to go?  

Don't like it? Buy a horse. Or a bike. Or magic trains out of your butt overnight. It's all your own fault anyway.

Welcome to the new European Libertarian Tribune.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Jun 11th, 2008 at 10:23:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Colman:
Welcome to the new European Libertarian Tribune.
Huh. I don't consider myself a libertarian but I do think by and large markets should be allowed to set prices. Compensatory measures should not distort prices.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jun 11th, 2008 at 10:30:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I assume you meant markets that operate within the rules the society decides are required to get the effects we want then.

Compensatory measures always distort prices, don't they?

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Jun 11th, 2008 at 10:35:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]
No, they don't. Subsidizing people moving out ot the sector doesn't distort the price. It yields to the pressure in a positive way.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jun 11th, 2008 at 10:41:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]
ASsuming that there's enough left in the sector to do the work required to keep things running in the short term.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Jun 11th, 2008 at 10:45:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]
If there isn't then there will be demand for some of those people not to leave the sector, and the price of their service will go up.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jun 11th, 2008 at 10:50:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Doesn't the subsidizing of the delivery mechanism (eg roads) distort the market effect?  
by paving on Wed Jun 11th, 2008 at 01:43:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]
To an extent, but roads are a key infrastructure.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jun 11th, 2008 at 01:56:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]
So markets don't distort prices of key infrastructure?
by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Wed Jun 11th, 2008 at 02:41:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Key infrastructure shouldn't be left to markets.

Like Marek said above about education and health care.

I mean, come on, we're talking about roads here, without which you can't bike from A to B.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jun 11th, 2008 at 02:47:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
And if there's no other capacity on alternative modes of transport, trucking isn't key infrastructure?

This why I don't like 'markets should...' arguments. There's no clean definition of social necessity.

What markets really do is act as amplifiers of political positions. They're not designed to set prices rationally, they're designed to make some people rich and powerful and other people poor and irrelevant.

Is there anything at all which markets do which can't be done better in other ways?

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Wed Jun 11th, 2008 at 03:04:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Setting prices by fiat doesn't quite work either.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jun 11th, 2008 at 04:23:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That's all markets do anyway - they've just voodoo'd everyone into believing that the market price is somehow magically the right one, and government fiat prices are wrong by definition.

As Sassafras said, reality isn't quite that tidy.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Wed Jun 11th, 2008 at 06:40:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
ThatBritGuy:
And if there's no other capacity on alternative modes of transport, trucking isn't key infrastructure?
Now that's an idea: nationalising the hauliers.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Jun 12th, 2008 at 05:58:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Don't see why not, as an emergency measure.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu Jun 12th, 2008 at 06:04:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The problem is that Spain already nationalised coal mining 50 years ago, and then continued to sink subsidies into it and encouraging new people to take up jobs in the sector instead of winding it down. So I could see the same waste happening in this case.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Jun 12th, 2008 at 06:25:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]
By nationalising something you do not take it out of the money economy
by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Thu Jun 12th, 2008 at 08:32:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]
So what to do about this particular case?

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Jun 12th, 2008 at 08:51:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]
What sassafras said - kind of. Social transfers and a plan to give those who become jobless training for new jobs. Starting or expanding government enterprises for the purpose or creating new employment (rail and rail construction being obvious candidates for expansion). In as far as it is needed: I am not sure how large the number of bankruptcies will be.

What should also be done is looking at how the transport infrastructure should be shaped for the future. I think it is plausible that we will see a scenario with much more rail transport, with the final leg being performed by relatively small electric trucks with a limited autonomous range (but also by for instance coopting tramways in cities).

Building big new highways (as Zapatero is doing) will mainly favour mule power...

by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Thu Jun 12th, 2008 at 11:12:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]
powered b y slave galleys of pedalers...
by wu ming on Sat Jun 14th, 2008 at 03:52:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Or they'll be driven out by the monopolists who will be able to set their own prices once the independents have gone, and can always threaten to be 'structural' and therefore in dire need of a bailout if they run into problems.
by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Wed Jun 11th, 2008 at 01:53:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Markets are a tool, they produce results more efficiently than government action. However, that assumes that the results are desirable and the negative externalities aren't too bad. That's the case here, it isn't always.  In situations where markets will create the wrong result, the government can change the incentives to change the results or step in to run things directly when no amount of rule changing will allow markets to create the right outcome e.g. health care or education.  One shouldn't fetishize markets in either direction.

The demand destruction of higher fuel prices is of the sort we want - changing transport, production, and consumption patterns in the direction of less use of a scarce resource and lower CO2 output. Spain and other wealthy countries are fortunate enough that the immediate pain of demand destruction is in the form of eating something else and spending a bit more for food and other items, rather than starvation. So as you say, help out the small number of people badly hit by the change, and otherwise step back and let things happen. This is really no different than, say, regulations banning logging in old-growth forests where a small group of people end up losing their livelihood and way of life, while the rest of society adapts.

by MarekNYC on Wed Jun 11th, 2008 at 11:19:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]

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