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such democracy, the better.  My problem is with the unanimity rule which requires that something major can only happen if it is unanimously supported by all members - which gets patently absurd the larger the EU grows.

I agree with you totally. But this solution is far from optimal even in that respect. "Bullying" a country
will only create resentment. I actually think that a "multispeed" EU would be a better approach in that respect. So the UK wants to opt out of almost everything? Go ahead, but let others integrate more deeply if they want to.


I don't see how more members - e.g. in the Balkans can be admitted into the EU until this changes.

I would suggest that your beloved EU bureaucracy made a major blunder in expanding to 25 before changing the rules.


I also don't see how the EU can become a significant balancing force to prevent the US neo-con political elite treating the world as their playground - until the EU has more effective leadership and decision making processes in place.

The neocons have currently enough problems inside the US. And again, that idea that our beloved EU bureaucrats are a bunch of social democratic saints is something that I do take for granted. Actually the current EU commission president is the biggest neocon lap dog I could think off (I still remember of pictures of him, as prime minister of Portugal, in the Azores summit where the Iraq invasion was "legitimized").


Most people who whine about the democratic deficit in the EU are also working actively to try to stop it becoming more democratic - because they don't want the EU at all.  And if that happens, the US and Global Capital will rule the world unhindered by any democratic sensibilities whatsoever.

I respect your opinion, but I actually think it is the other way around: political power detached from the vote will more easy to be corrupted by money/media power. Direct voter accountability, (near) proportional parliament systems and control of campaign financing are cornerstones of assuring that political power will not be hijacked.


For all it's faults, the EU is a lot better than the alternative - a lot of small and medium size countries

Your argument that there are only 2 alternatives is flawed: Lisbon is not the only way to conceive the EU. Their are other alternatives to Lisbon. Had we had decent leadership, more sensible alternatives could have been purposed.


not some idealised democratic nirvana.

The "idealized democratic nirvana" that some of us are talking about is not idealized (it exists, see most of the EU nation states) and is not a nirvana (it has many flaws, but at least it is still reasonably democratic).

by t-------------- on Fri Jun 13th, 2008 at 08:38:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]

beloved EU bureaucrats are a bunch of social democratic saints is something that I do take for granted. Actually the current EU commission president is the biggest neocon lap dog I could

Sorry, I meant: "I do NOT take for granted"

by t-------------- on Fri Jun 13th, 2008 at 08:42:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]
tiagoantao:

I would suggest that your beloved EU bureaucracy made a major blunder in expanding to 25 before changing the rules.

Put that down to a delay in agreeing to a final "Constitution" text due to Aznar's stalling on the Council voting weights issue.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Jun 13th, 2008 at 08:44:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Also, the too quick expansion blunder was one shared by the entire political class in the EU-15, with the "EU bureaucracy" (why do leftists repeat Tory Eurosceptic buzzwqords?) playing a relatively minor role: in the EU, the final word was the Council's, and expansion had to be approved by national parliaments.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Fri Jun 13th, 2008 at 09:52:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I always find it remarkable how much the hard left take their "facts" and language from the Tory Eurosceptic right.  

"It's a mystery to me - the game commences, For the usual fee - plus expenses, Confidential information - it's in my diary..."
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot dotty communists) on Fri Jun 13th, 2008 at 09:59:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Not to mention how they vote with them so often. Isn't it weird how the interests of the anti-military crowd line up so neatly with those of the US military-industrial crowd?
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Fri Jun 13th, 2008 at 10:02:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes and no: Both want Europe to not have independent military capabilities.

- Jake

If you only spend 20 minutes of the rest of your life on economics, go spend them here.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sun Jun 15th, 2008 at 07:08:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Do you mean the hard left in Ireland?

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Fri Jun 13th, 2008 at 10:20:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes - they seem to share a nationalist perspective with the UK Tories

"It's a mystery to me - the game commences, For the usual fee - plus expenses, Confidential information - it's in my diary..."
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot dotty communists) on Fri Jun 13th, 2008 at 10:25:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I always find it remarkable how much the hard left take their "facts" and language from the Tory Eurosceptic right.

Although I am far from being "hard left" (and thus cannot give an answer from that perspective), I have no problems in using Tory (or whatever) words if they seem to be an accurate description of reality.

I would actually invert the argument altogether: do you have any problems in using other people's keywords just because those people are "far away" from you? So casual agreement with the "other side" is a substantial (negative) argument for you?

by t-------------- on Fri Jun 13th, 2008 at 10:24:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I have no problems using any words which describe reality as accurately as I can.  My point was that I believe the hard left in Ireland and the Tory right in the UK have a lot in common - including a shared belief in the primacy of the nation state above all else.

"It's a mystery to me - the game commences, For the usual fee - plus expenses, Confidential information - it's in my diary..."
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot dotty communists) on Fri Jun 13th, 2008 at 10:28:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Personally, I do have a problem with that. Political buzzwords carry connotations built up with lots of propaganda. Especially when coming from the right, they don't describe reality; and even if there is a real problem, they shift focus on something else. "EU bureaucracy" is a perfect example.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Fri Jun 13th, 2008 at 10:36:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
(For full disclosure: myself, I am a hard-leftist who is strongly pro-EU -as-principle but also strongly critical of the EU as it exists, and I do have some symphathy for fellow hard-leftists on a No-Lisbon platform.)

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Fri Jun 13th, 2008 at 10:39:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It's all about the narratives.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Jun 13th, 2008 at 10:41:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Agree. That would be an interesting discussion altogether.

But, from an intellectual perspective, I would argue that people sometimes refuse an argument just because it is made from the "other side". That doesn't seem healthy.

From a media/narrative perspective I see your point.

by t-------------- on Fri Jun 13th, 2008 at 11:00:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]
There certainly is a strong "pragmatist" "use the arguments that work" tradition in the French trotskyst hard left parties.

Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères
by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Fri Jun 13th, 2008 at 10:30:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]

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