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I don't mean how to theoretically construct it - though a US model is one of the worst ideas I can think of - I mean how to get there. What sequence of believable steps would you take? How do you get your wonderful idea ratified?
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Fri Jun 13th, 2008 at 10:55:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I am just taking, from the US model, the Congress and Senate.

Never the dependency on private money for politics.

And the ideal, long term "congress" would be proportional - EU wide - single circle.

How to get there? First step: Have a treaty that reinforces the parliament (I know, Lisbon does that) and empties the non electable parts of the EU.

What I don't want to see is major policy decisions coming from unelected (or very indirectly elected) parts of the EU. Just that.

And things like tax competition, future train liberalization, come as far as I know (correct me if I am wrong) not from the European parliament but from either the commission or inter governmental agreements.

But, falling back to pragmatic reality, I would bet that the way now will be "two speeds". But lets see...

by t-------------- on Fri Jun 13th, 2008 at 11:13:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]
tiagoantao:
How to get there? First step: Have a treaty that reinforces the parliament (I know, Lisbon does that) and empties the non electable parts of the EU.
How do you get the Council to agree to strip itself of power?
What I don't want to see is major policy decisions coming from unelected (or very indirectly elected) parts of the EU. Just that.
Because National Laws are shining examples of rational and just  policies and EU Directives are blockheaded. Right.
And things like tax competition, future train liberalization, come as far as I know (correct me if I am wrong) not from the European parliament but from either the commission or inter governmental agreements.
True, but how do you get the Council to give up their political power?

And, if you do that, how do you get the sovereigntist camp in each member state from voting no? They'de be very strong in a number of countries, actually in a majority I suspect (Ireland, UK, Scandinavia and most of the New Member States)

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Jun 13th, 2008 at 11:18:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]

    What I don't want to see is major policy decisions coming from unelected (or very indirectly elected) parts of the EU. Just that.

Because National Laws are shining examples of rational and just  policies and EU Directives are blockheaded. Right

My argument for democracy is not pragmatic but principled.

I am Portuguese, most of what can be called civilization in my country is normally the imposition of an EU directive (this is an exaggeration, but you get the point).

I am fully aware of the shortcomings of democracy. I normally am against the common/majority sense in my original country. But in the overall I cannot think of a better system (a topic for another discussion...).

by t-------------- on Fri Jun 13th, 2008 at 11:39:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]
tiagoantao:
I am Portuguese, most of what can be called civilization in my country is normally the imposition of an EU directive (this is an exaggeration, but you get the point).
It may not be an exaggeration because the Enlightenment has been an elite project for the last 300 years. Progressive and potentially inclusive, but elite all the same.

The labour movement has been another powerful non-elite engine of progress.

Both seem to have fizzled out of late and a synthesis and revival would be a very good thing.

But the point is that a technocratic elite might be a good thing in a democratic arrangement.

In France, however, as I gather from Jerome's complaints, the technocratic elite has lost its public service ethos and been coopted into predatorial capitalism which is not a good thing. And as the EU Commission looks a lot like the French civil service, one should expect a similar shift there.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Jun 13th, 2008 at 11:49:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Exactly.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Fri Jun 13th, 2008 at 06:53:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I am just taking, from the US model, the Congress and Senate.

Never the dependency on private money for politics.

  1. The dependenccy on private money for politics, and the general bad state, arguably has stuctural reasons, too.

  2. As Migeru noted, there are other federal models around.

  3. Personally, I don't see much sense in a diretly elected Senate, when there are governments already. Either way, I would like to see the power of the body representing the federated territorial units reduced relative to the body representing all citizens of the federation.


*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Fri Jun 13th, 2008 at 11:36:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Actually, an unelected second-reading chamber helps protect the State from the influence of money. Case in point: if the House of Lords votes down 42-day detention it will be in part because Brown can't threaten the Lords with a snap election where they'd lose their seats, or engage in horse-trading on individual constituency demands.

So I am convinced that having two directly elected chambers is a waste. Spain's Senate definitely is useless as configured and I would much rather it be replaced with the Conference of Presidents.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Jun 13th, 2008 at 11:40:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I missed one line here: ... but I am not convinced that a unelected second chamber is a bad idea

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Jun 13th, 2008 at 11:55:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]

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