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tiagoantao:
I suppose you are being sarcastic, but there are many ways, a simple example:
He's pointing out that you need to get this coded into a treaty, agreed by the Council of the EU, and approved by all 27 member states. Good luck with steps 2 and 3, as we have seen.
Give political EU power to a body directly elected by citizens, and only (mostly) to that.
Define "political power". The EU already exist. Don't fetishize "directly elected": this is still a representative democracy.
Want some nation representation? Have a senate, American way. Equal nation representation, directly elected.
Don't fetishize the American Senate. We already have the Council, which is very much like the German Bundesrat, the Swiss Federal Council, or the Spanish (consultative) "Assembly of Presidents" (of Autonomous Communities).
I don't think this is a "Summer night's dream".
It is to think it'll be any easier to even get agreement to that at the EU Council.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Jun 13th, 2008 at 11:00:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The EU already exist

I mean the EP already exists.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Jun 13th, 2008 at 11:21:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, to not be negative, I would love to see an EU federalist reform via citizen's initiative rather than the work of a body drawn from national parliaments but hijacked by ol' Giscard. In fact, in that situation, the EU Council might feel pressed to play along.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Fri Jun 13th, 2008 at 11:22:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Too bad the Lisbon Treaty and its right of Initiative didn't pass.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Jun 13th, 2008 at 11:23:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]
What I mean is that the (or a) Constitution/Reform/Lisbon Treaty itself would have a greater chance of being passed in referendums, would it be pushed by (would it be seen as owned by) a citizen's initiativew rather than the political class.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Fri Jun 13th, 2008 at 05:17:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Does making the European Parliament draft it count?

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Jun 13th, 2008 at 05:26:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Do you mean

Citizen's Initiative for new Constitution -> EP actually drafts it -> text goes through Council and Commission -> final draft goes to referendums, with citizen's initiative taking credit -> people approve,

or

EP initiates and drafts it -> text goes through Council and Commission -> final draft goes to referendums, with EP distinguishing itself from the "political class" (Counci, governments) and the "bureaucrats" (Commission) by taking credit -> people approve?

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Fri Jun 13th, 2008 at 06:12:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
More the second, thought I suspect you meant the first.

I don't think either is currently viable as things stand: the Irish just killed the right of petition though if someone gathered 1 million signatures I suppose it could still be made to happen.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Jun 13th, 2008 at 06:17:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I meant the first, and I meant an 'inofficial' but "making-waves" citizen's initiative, which itself could achieve the right of real Citizen's Initiative as part of a reform treaty people actually accept.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Fri Jun 13th, 2008 at 06:29:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Just to make sure you do not miss my humble ideas on how to use the EP election to transfer real power within the structure:
European Tribune - After Lisbon, using EP election to strenghten EP power
After Lisbon, using EP election to strenghten EP power

"If elected, I will not vote to elect an EP president unless the president in question agrees to hold an EP conference to draft the EPs proposal for a coherent constitution, to be approved by EU-wide common referenda before submitted to member state ratification"

A vote for PES is a vote for EPP! A vote for EPP is a vote for PES! Support the coalition, vote EPP-PES in 2009!

by A swedish kind of death on Fri Jun 13th, 2008 at 07:14:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Here's how we should top Stop Blair!: draft our own EU Constitution & campaign for it!...

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Fri Jun 13th, 2008 at 06:31:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Jun 13th, 2008 at 06:43:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]
He's pointing out that you need to get this coded into a treaty, agreed by the Council of the EU, and approved by all 27 member states. Good luck with steps 2 and 3, as we have seen. [my emphasis]

Is there any reason under international law why a number of states could not decide to mutually and consensually annex each other and establish a bigger state? And is there any reason under international law that such a superstate could not withdraw from the EU unilaterally, either after or during formation?

If this superstate encompasses all of the EU sans a few objecting minor countries (UK, Cyprus, maybe Denmark. You all know The Usual Suspects), they might even be able to transfer most of the bureaucracy reasonably intact, if that is considered desirable.

How would this differ from amending the existing treaties to make the EU a federal state (apart, of course, from being a bit smaller)?

- Jake

If you only spend 20 minutes of the rest of your life on economics, go spend them here.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sun Jun 15th, 2008 at 06:38:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I think it is quite feasible, within international law, for a number of current EU members states to agree (say) a joint constitution which binds them much closer together than the current EU does.  Non members of this elite club would only have a grievance if any of the elite club welshed on their commitments to them under existing EU treaties.  

However given that these are presumably mostly lesser commitments, and that the new elite arrangement is a superset of what the EU treaty obligations currently are - there might not actually be a problem except for hugely confusing arrangements which might be required to keep the entities separate  - e.g. two commissions serving some of the same countries but not all.

However the members of the elite club could also give notice of their intention to withdraw from the existing EU and nobody could stop them.  You would then have an elite club of x members - and a rump EU of 27-X members.  Pretty soon they would be accepted as nonsensical by all, and, depending on the size of X, one camp would fold its tent and either go independent or join the other.

Thus if the EP drafted a radical and simplified new constitution, and say 22 members signed up for it and gave notice of their intention to withdraw from the EU (classic edition), the other 5 would realistically have to either join up or go it alone.  Small countries like Ireland would have little choice but to join up.  Only bigger countries like UK/Sweden etc. might decide otherwise.  And everyone might decide a much more cohesive and democratic EU of say 25 members is better than a chaotic 27 member EU.

This may be the thinking behind the proposal that the Lisbon ratification process should continue.  At some point the Lisbon compliant members might simply threaten to leave the old EU and continue on their own - at which point Ireland would cave in and the UK might not - but I wouldn't be surprised if even the UK would cave in at the last moment amid loud accusations of blackmail etc.

The bottom line is that the EU is the only game in town and those who threaten it are playing with fire.

"It's a mystery to me - the game commences, For the usual fee - plus expenses, Confidential information - it's in my diary..."

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot dotty communists) on Sun Jun 15th, 2008 at 08:10:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

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