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nanne:
This is a bit overdrawn. The Irish referendum is not the only lens through which we should look at the Lisbon Treaty.

It is, however, the lens which matters right now - particularly if Lisbon is defeated.  If that happens it will not be because the Irish are anti-EU, but because they have a real problem with passing into their constitution a series of proposals to complex and opaque, that even the experts have difficulty in deciphering the exact meaning, intent, and effect of the document.

If anything, this unfortunate campaign has given a platform for every tendency hostile to the EU ideal and given very little concrete to those who support it to work with.  Ireland will probably be less pro-EU as a result of this unfortunate experience - even if the Treaty is ratified - because a degree of trust has been  lost, and a great deal of cynicism has been justified.

"It's a mystery to me - the game commences, For the usual fee - plus expenses, Confidential information - it's in my diary..."

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot dotty communists) on Thu Jun 12th, 2008 at 07:21:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Ireland will probably be less pro-EU as a result of this unfortunate experience - even if the Treaty is ratified - because a degree of trust has been  lost, and a great deal of cynicism has been justified.

Exactly. Somehow the "marketing" of the EU must have really gone horribly wrong, if they can't sell a reform treaty even in a "eurofriendly" country like Ireland.

I think if referenda had been mandatory in every member country, and a "NO" would have meant immediate withdrawal of that member country, the local governments probably would have done a much better job in "selling" the treaty.

The problem is that nowadays nobody sees the huge advantages of an economic union anymore, because everybody has so gotten used to easy travel, business across country borders without exchange rates and tariffs and all those things. If Ireland would lose the economic advantages of membership from one day to the next, probably most of those Euroskeptics would be the ones to complain loudest of all ...

by rwe (roland.weede_NO@SPAM_gmx.net) on Fri Jun 13th, 2008 at 12:15:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]
We've had long debates about that here. I guess we should dig out and/or summarise some of them.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Fri Jun 13th, 2008 at 12:17:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
rwe:
If Ireland would lose the economic advantages of membership from one day to the next, probably most of those Euroskeptics would be the ones to complain loudest of all ...

Some would be quite happy to retreat to an older, more conservative, religious, monocultural and "pure" Ireland.  Some imagine the can secure more power and influence within the nation state than they can within the EU as a whole.  Some see the EU as part of the global capitalist conspiracy to take over the world. Some are "following the money" and ingratiating themselves with their US masters.  Most are just pandering to the frustrations that many people feel in a rapidly changing society.  The problem is there isn't a coherent set of "NO" issues which can be addressed, and therefore no obvious solution to the impasse in EU development.

"It's a mystery to me - the game commences, For the usual fee - plus expenses, Confidential information - it's in my diary..."

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot dotty communists) on Fri Jun 13th, 2008 at 12:24:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I already suggested that the EU should just resort to bribery.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Fri Jun 13th, 2008 at 12:25:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I know you're feeling grumpy, but in fairness many on the  NO side feel they have very real and deep grievances and won't be easily bought off.  What are you going to give them - cheap oil, Charlie McCreevy as a Commissioner for life, a ban on contraception?  Ask your relatives what it would take...

"It's a mystery to me - the game commences, For the usual fee - plus expenses, Confidential information - it's in my diary..."
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot dotty communists) on Fri Jun 13th, 2008 at 12:32:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I believe a pony is the going rate.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Fri Jun 13th, 2008 at 01:02:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]
you have cheap relatives....

"It's a mystery to me - the game commences, For the usual fee - plus expenses, Confidential information - it's in my diary..."
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot dotty communists) on Fri Jun 13th, 2008 at 01:30:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

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