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It looks like a comprehensive no. Listening to tallys from all over the country on national radio and it's splitting average around 60% No and 40 % yes. The exception sofar is the Prime Ministers constituency.

Hey there IS an opposition in Ireland after all. This is a rejection of almost the entire political class in the country! The people just don't trust them.

by irishhead on Fri Jun 13th, 2008 at 06:09:20 AM EST
How much of the success of the no is down to ample funding from US sources, colour-revolution style?

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Jun 13th, 2008 at 06:14:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]
None at all: this is an honest rejection of lizard-man run pro-abortion, pro-tax, anti-business, pro-business, anti-neutrality conspiracists.

Or possibly it shows that US right-wing style disinformation and propaganda works nicely in Ireland, especially when backed up by the British media that dominates a large chunk of the market here.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Fri Jun 13th, 2008 at 06:17:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Irishhead is right, though, the political class are a failure, and not only in Ireland.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Jun 13th, 2008 at 06:21:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Partially true. It's also true that democracy just doesn't work in the face of media control and manipulation: those parts of the media not controlled by the No camp have been manipulated by the "equal time" requirement - broadcasters are required to give the Yes and No sides equal time, which means in this case that a very small number of individuals had the opportunity to scatter whatever misinformation they felt like. Misinformation takes more time to debunk than it takes to spread, especially when it feeds into pre-existing biases.

The problem was that there were a dozen spurious reasons to vote No, and very few compelling ones to vote yes, and that the main political parties fumbled the whole thing anyway, have been fumbling the whole thing for a decade or more.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Fri Jun 13th, 2008 at 06:28:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Colman:
the main political parties fumbled the whole thing anyway, have been fumbling the whole thing for a decade or more.
Europe-wide since at least 1995.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Jun 13th, 2008 at 06:32:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yup.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Fri Jun 13th, 2008 at 06:32:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Colman:
It's also true that democracy just doesn't work in the face of media control and manipulation

Yep.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Fri Jun 13th, 2008 at 07:29:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]
i imagine the same sentence turned around_

media control and manipulation doesn't work in a democracy, redefining democracy a little perhaps!

simply giving un- or misinformed people a vote is not full democracy, methinks, and if people are allowed and encouraged to follow, observe, critique and participate more, (which is happening at a rapid rate), then politicians get away with spinning and psywarring, and the public are continually buying a pig in a poke.

an uninvolved electorate is a sign of luxury in a society, that things are going so (sink or) swimmingly in material terms that people cast but a shallow lookaround at the big wheels turning overhead.

in harder (and better informed) times, i think politicians will have to be a lot more real and accountable, cognitive dissonance is already at snapping point,recent world events making it ever more obvious how much we've been played for fools.

~"When an inner situation is not made conscious, it appears outside as fate." Karl Jung~

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Sat Jun 14th, 2008 at 10:29:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]
and if people are allowed and encouraged to follow, observe, critique and participate more,

oops, i meant until people...

~"When an inner situation is not made conscious, it appears outside as fate." Karl Jung~

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Sat Jun 14th, 2008 at 10:36:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]
We have a Prime Minister now? Cool.

I do believe I'm going to puke listening to the spin the anti-EU side are going to put on this.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Fri Jun 13th, 2008 at 06:15:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Onwards, enhanced cooperation soldiers!

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Jun 13th, 2008 at 06:20:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]
So you voted about your political class, rather than the EU?

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Fri Jun 13th, 2008 at 09:53:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Like the French non?

However, it could have been a vote against the entire EU political class that gave us this Treaty. Would that be more acceptable as a reason?

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Jun 13th, 2008 at 09:57:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I actually know a guy who voted no in the French referendum because he thought that a EU ruled by treaties was preferable to one ruled by democracy ; and who was wary of sharing a democracy with the Poles (he had spent some time there)...

Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères
by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Fri Jun 13th, 2008 at 10:01:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]
a classic nationalist position.  we don't want them foreigners telling us what to do....

"It's a mystery to me - the game commences, For the usual fee - plus expenses, Confidential information - it's in my diary..."
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot dotty communists) on Fri Jun 13th, 2008 at 10:03:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Exactly. But not really a vote against the political class. Actually, I'd believe part of the no vote is helped by some trust in the political classes : there's disbelief in the possibility of actually breaking up the Union ; "they'll find a way to fix it" was part of his discourse.

Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères
by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Fri Jun 13th, 2008 at 10:06:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Pretty much none of the No campaigners would admit to being anti-EU. In fact, "We can get a better deal" was explicitly part of the campaign. Many of them are, in fact, anti-EU on principle, but they couldn't say that.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Fri Jun 13th, 2008 at 10:07:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]
"I suspect that many of them are, in fact, anti-EU on principle"
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Fri Jun 13th, 2008 at 10:08:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]
yep - if I'm going to be ruled by the ruling class I want it to be MY ruling class, not theirs....  There is also quite an authoritarian, anti-democratic streak in the make-up of many nationalists

"It's a mystery to me - the game commences, For the usual fee - plus expenses, Confidential information - it's in my diary..."
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot dotty communists) on Fri Jun 13th, 2008 at 10:09:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Indeed, there was clearly an authoritarian streak in him (very annoyingly, as he was a flatmate). There is no perception of a EU ruling class which could build identification for those people.

Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères
by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Fri Jun 13th, 2008 at 10:13:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]
In the absence of compelling reasons to vote yes any of a number of variously wacky reasons will push enough people to vote no.

So the problem is the lack of compelling reasons to vote yes. Just making life easier for the politicians when they want to make things happen in Brussels is not compelling for anyone other than the politicians.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Jun 13th, 2008 at 10:09:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Thanks mig - so good you said it thrice - you trying to push this into the most commented threads hit list?

"It's a mystery to me - the game commences, For the usual fee - plus expenses, Confidential information - it's in my diary..."
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot dotty communists) on Fri Jun 13th, 2008 at 10:12:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Looks like getting there won't be all that hard. All ET activity (all four of us right now) is on this thread. (points and winks at his diary).

Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères
by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Fri Jun 13th, 2008 at 10:14:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Forget I said this - Migs comment above appeared triplicated on my screen, but the duplicates have now disappeared.  Is he a super-user or what!

"It's a mystery to me - the game commences, For the usual fee - plus expenses, Confidential information - it's in my diary..."
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot dotty communists) on Fri Jun 13th, 2008 at 10:18:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Before you go all paranoid, I note comments #160 and #162 exist and are yours, so there must have been no deleted comments - maybe your browser froze on scrolldown.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Fri Jun 13th, 2008 at 10:27:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]
(Or Mig deleted them before you posted #162.)

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Fri Jun 13th, 2008 at 10:28:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Or I must have deleted two comments before #160 was posted.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Jun 13th, 2008 at 10:29:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I knew you were a super-user with super powers operating at super speed.  That must be how you can comment simultaneously on 63 threads in 14 different languages and hold 4 nationalities all at the same time.  This is a twin speed blog, and the rest of us are on the slow lane...

"It's a mystery to me - the game commences, For the usual fee - plus expenses, Confidential information - it's in my diary..."
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot dotty communists) on Fri Jun 13th, 2008 at 10:36:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Now THAT has been my experience of Mig, too...

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Fri Jun 13th, 2008 at 10:51:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Indeed, I saw his comment move around from above to below yours. Not the first time I noticed, too. (Compulsive ET addict, me ? Noooo !)

Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères
by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Fri Jun 13th, 2008 at 10:31:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]

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