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Who told you the EU is a superstate? The EU is not even a Confederation.

On that note, and why did the US scrap the Articles of Confederation?

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jun 23rd, 2008 at 05:11:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Sorry if I was unclear - I meant the phrase 'EU superstate' to refer to the entity that would result if the EU constitution (Rome treaty was it?) or the Lisbon treaty were to become the law of the land.  But of course the entity you have now, based on Maastricht, is also called the EU.

I agree that the Maastricht EU is neither a superstate nor a Confederation.  I think it is fair to say that Rome, or Lisbon, would be a superstate, roughly analogous to my federal government.  My complaint is not that Europe is building a superstate, rather, that the superstate will be too technocratic, and not democratic enough.

Does that make sense or am I still misunderstanding something?

We scrapped the US Articles of Confederation because we wanted a stronger union of the states.  Which is certainly a legitimate thing for Europe's people and countries to do, if you so choose.  Keep in mind I am not against a pan-European political entity of some sort, and really, the decision isn't up to me.  I just don't understand the appeal of the particular type of entity that is currently at issue.

My main problem with the current EU entities (existing and proposed) are that they are inelegant and (in spite of the fetish for a thing called 'transparency') too opaque.  Informed consent requires that the operation be explained to the patient in terms that he or she can understand, without specialist training in medicine.  The same principle should apply to decisions about dramatic and not-easily-reversible changes in systems of government.

(Well I have other complaints about technocracy vs. democracy but this is the main question I'm interested in at the moment)

Both the Articles of Confederation, and the Constitution, could be understood by anyone who was literate.  Of course, most Americans weren't literate at the time, but the principle still stood, that you didn't have to have any specialist training, in order to understand the government you were voting to create, or to evaluate whether its ongoing performance remained faithful to the Articles or the Constitution.

I just do not believe the same can be said about Rome/Lisbon, or even Maastricht/Nice/etc.  But at least Maastricht is more modest in scope that Rome/Lisbon.

__
I am the most conservative Unitarian-Universalist you will ever meet.

by John in Michigan USA on Mon Jun 23rd, 2008 at 07:24:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]
John in Michigan USA:
I think it is fair to say that Rome, or Lisbon, would be a superstate, roughly analogous to my federal government.
Not by a long shot, IMHO.
My complaint is not that Europe is building a superstate, rather, that the superstate will be too technocratic, and not democratic enough.
Fair enough.
Does that make sense or am I still misunderstanding something?
Yes and yes?
We scrapped the US Articles of Confederation because we wanted a stronger union of the states.
Who is we? And how come there was an Anti-Federalist Party and it took over 80 "Federalist Papers" to convince New York State to ratify?
My main problem with the current EU entities (existing and proposed) are that they are inelegant and (in spite of the fetish for a thing called 'transparency') too opaque.
They are "inelegant" because they are attempting to square the circle and being "all things to all people". On trasparency, the least transparent of all the EU institutions happens to be the Council (which groups together the National Governments). That is not the technocratic part of the EU, but a political part.
Informed consent requires that the operation be explained to the patient in terms that he or she can understand, without specialist training in medicine.  The same principle should apply to decisions about dramatic and not-easily-reversible changes in systems of government.
In practice, informed consent is given because the doctor is trusted. The problem in this case is that the National Governments are not trusted by their own populations regarding the EU treaty the governments have agreed to among themselves.
Both the Articles of Confederation, and the Constitution, could be understood by anyone who was literate.  Of course, most Americans weren't literate at the time, but the principle still stood, that you didn't have to have any specialist training, in order to understand the government you were voting to create, or to evaluate whether its ongoing performance remained faithful to the Articles or the Constitution.

I just do not believe the same can be said about Rome/Lisbon, or even Maastricht/Nice/etc.  But at least Maastricht is more modest in scope that Rome/Lisbon.

I happen to disagree - while the treaty won't win any awards on literary merit, I do think it's readable. But in any case the Treaty of Lisbon is not a Constitution and the EU would remain an organization defined by treaties among states as amendments to Lisbon still need take place by an amending treaty negotiated by the States.

By the way, the current treaty is the Treaty of Nice, Maastricht was superseded (amended) twice, by Amsterdam and Nice.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jun 23rd, 2008 at 08:20:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]

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