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So who's the player with the short sighted lack of investment now?

I hear your point and I expect oil will wave down in the next 3-5 years as investment in alternatives and conservation kick in.  However, with 1 billion Chinese and another billion Indians still living in 1750 for all intents, there's so much room to grow oil may never really retrace.

agree 100%.  Speculation has had input in making the price move much faster to where it was going anyway.  Always money to be made in reading the tea leaves and making the market move on YOUR timetable.

by HiD on Mon Jun 23rd, 2008 at 06:13:22 PM EST
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I completely agree that there's no reason to expect oil prices to go down even if Western demand switches to renewables because of 1) strong demand from China and India; 2) likely post-peak fossil carbon production.

But there's no fundamental reason for the price to be higher than $150 - it might stabilize at that level on the argument that at that level alternative energy infrastructure becomes profitable.

2 years abowe $100 and the long-term expectations will set in and change the game.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jun 24th, 2008 at 04:55:06 AM EST
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I'm afraid they're going to have to go even higher, and for a longer period, to set expectations.  Right now, people are still fully expecting prices to go back down eventually.  Prices are fighting against decades of stupidity here.

Conservatives want live babies so they can raise them to be dead soldiers. - George Carlin
by Drew J Jones (myfriends@thisispancakes.com) on Tue Jun 24th, 2008 at 07:39:04 AM EST
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I think you only need 2 years of 5-year oil futures above $100 to change business expectations, and that's what really matters for new investment in physical plant (since we are so well schooled in the principles of classical economics that we don't allow the State to do the investment).

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jun 24th, 2008 at 07:44:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Wind power needs 15 years of prices higher than a certain threshhold to be profitable - so, unless you have specific incentives, you need the certainty that oil prices will be above, say, 80$/bl for the next 15 years ,not just 5, to invest. High likelihood is not enough in that case, because if it drops below you riks losing your project to the banks.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Tue Jun 24th, 2008 at 08:03:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]
markets are us they have no clue where oil will go:



In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Tue Jun 24th, 2008 at 08:05:45 AM EST
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How much above $80 do they need to be for 15 years? There are too dimensions here, premium and time.

For instance, suppose the break-even price is $50, so $80 for 15 years is $30 over break-even for 15 years. Could you get away with $90 over the threshold for 5 years? That would be $140 for 5 years, which you can now perfectly hedge in the forward market.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jun 24th, 2008 at 08:20:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]
but electricity prices follow gas prices with a lag, and gas prices follow oil prices with a lag (and with quite independent short term variations).

And as wind grows, it pulls marginal prices down, thus threatening its own viability. Thus, as I noted before, it's likely that wind will need feed-in tariffs even as fuel prices are very high...

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Tue Jun 24th, 2008 at 04:08:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, as a matter of pure Keynesian trade policy, it is only common sense to pull wind off the margin and into the baseline.


I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.
by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Tue Jun 24th, 2008 at 06:14:57 PM EST
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