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is a waste of time, if they are 'invested'. There's your morality - i.e., it is relative to their investment.

Efficiency is mentioned several times in this thread. It is inefficient to talk to people who have strong motives to block your arguments.

paul spencer

by paul spencer (spencerinthegorge AT yahoo DOT com) on Mon Jun 23rd, 2008 at 09:51:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]
paul spencer: Talking to 'fiscal conservatives' is a waste of time, if they are 'invested'. There's your morality - i.e., it is relative to their investment.

It may be inefficient, but I don't think it's hopeless.  And these are not people who lack compassion, and while they probably have some investments, the bulk of their income comes from their salaries.

I've been thinking a lot about what the purpose of ETPedia after getting slapped around by ThatBritGuy in an earlier discussion on that topic.

In addition to being a position-paper container/ideological framer/attention attractor, I think what ETPedia can do -- through position papers and/or through more modest articles -- is present arguments on issues that are specifically designed to address and defeat oft-used counter-arguments, and to do so in an utterly non-contentious manner that presumes the reader is in good faith and open to considering the arguments on its merits.

In addition to "Why progressive taxation is a good thing", there also comes to mind "Why regulation is a good thing", for starters (and actually another topic I've been debating my friends about.)

I find that reading blogs and commenting is informative, but when it came to debating with my friends, I simply was not able quickly to marshal the evidence and reasoning that nevertheless I had read in abundance on this site.  So I guess I figured I should start putting Cliff's Notes (cheat sheets) distilled and/or precipitated from here.

... all progress depends on the unreasonable mensch.
(apologies to G.B. Shaw)

by marco (cowannar at gmail punkt com) on Mon Jun 23rd, 2008 at 12:07:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't mean to demean your friends. My neighbor still won't quite accept the fact that Iraq is about the oil. He hates the occupation, but he just can't believe that the ruling class is that crass, amoral, and/or powerful.

paul spencer
by paul spencer (spencerinthegorge AT yahoo DOT com) on Mon Jun 23rd, 2008 at 03:30:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I agree that it is worthwhile to continue attempting to persuade even the "invincibly ignorant."  I think that the key is to find things consequent to their arguments that conflict with values and self images that they treasure.  Things they "wouldn't want to think that!" about.  

Another argument derives from Aristotle's Ethics. He asked how any thinking person could be happy.  No matter your current state of affairs and reasons for felicity, you must always be aware that all could change tomorrow.   You could be struck mute and paralyzed. See your fortune lost to theft or opportunistic legal actions, see your sons killed and your wife and daughters raped and be powerless to prevent or avenge these events.  Knowing this, how can anyone truly be happy?  My father used to say: "Only fools are happy."

Think this surely can no longer be the case?  Consider the latter years of Joe Kennedy.  Consider John Ramsey, his wife Patsy and their daughter, Jon Benet.  The only possible defense against such calamities is a strong and caring community and a just society.  We are far from it.  Your friends can deny that this will happen to them and may well be right, but perhaps these considerations will at least disturb their sleep.

Have any of these things  

If sanity be culturally normative, then by the norms of this culture I claim insanity.

by ARGeezer (argeezer a in a circle yahoo dot com) on Tue Jun 24th, 2008 at 04:58:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
18 For with much wisdom comes much sorrow; the more knowledge, the more grief.


When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jun 24th, 2008 at 05:08:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

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