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Is it pushing prices down? Having no effect at all? Adding 5%, 10% 20%? Are the financial wizkids just not involved in the market for some reason?

Or is just asking the question evidence that I've become a conspiracy minded maniac searching for scapegoats?

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Fri Jun 27th, 2008 at 03:25:03 AM EST
See the top-level comment by fredouil re:volume traded in oil futures.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Jun 27th, 2008 at 03:39:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, beyond pricing geoplitical risk on a probabilistic basis, it's not obvious it is having any effect on prices.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Fri Jun 27th, 2008 at 04:29:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Is it obvious that it's not having an effect on prices? I'm extremely concerned that you have precisely the opposite confirmation bias to politicians, in that you want there to be no contribution from speculation while they'd love speculation to be responsible for U$120 of the US$140.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Fri Jun 27th, 2008 at 04:41:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]

it is obvious that it's not having an effect on prices

and


it is not obvious that it's having an effect on prices

are not the same. I wrote the second, you claim I wrote the first. Nice attempt at putting the burden of proof on me.


In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Fri Jun 27th, 2008 at 06:02:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]
No, I'm raising the first as a question. I'm trying to establish if you believe the it to be true, and if so, why. If not, I'm trying to work out where the uncertainty is.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Fri Jun 27th, 2008 at 07:56:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't know, but stand by my 'it's not obvious that speculation plays a role' line.

Here's another interesting graph showing the lack of elasticity of oil demand (not sure what the 3 lines goign through it are, though):



In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Fri Jun 27th, 2008 at 09:18:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That looks more like the supply curve than the demand curve.  Sure you've got that right?

Conservatives want live babies so they can raise them to be dead soldiers. - George Carlin
by Drew J Jones (myfriends@thisispancakes.com) on Fri Jun 27th, 2008 at 09:26:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That is production, you are right.

But production = consumption.

While we have data on "production capacity" and so can look at the supply "slack" (or lack thereof, at present) there's no equivalent data for "demand".

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Jun 27th, 2008 at 09:32:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]
pretty much:



In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Fri Jun 27th, 2008 at 09:46:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Pretty much, too...



When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Jun 27th, 2008 at 09:48:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I completely disagree with the theory that energy demand is inflexible. It is entirely a function of how you choose the scale of your graph.

So far the practical price of energy has hardly changed at all. When gasoline costs $25 a gallon there will obviously be a reduction in demand.

For example, suppose I own a gigantic SUV. If I sell it I'll get enough money to cover about 1/3 the price of a new hybrid (or 1/2 the price of a new conventional compact car), but with a new car I will have to pay a big registration tax and will have to have collision insurance coverage. The savings in fuel cost simply don't cover the extra cost of having a new car.

Plus, my SUV can carry more stuff and go off the road and is more intimidating on the highway and is preceived as being safer. The argument simply doesn't work out when the cost of fuel only doubles.

by asdf on Sat Jun 28th, 2008 at 12:01:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I think that confirmation bias does exist among some, but getting down to the cold, hard data suggests that speculators aren't really playing a role here.  The signs one would typically look for, if speculators were to blame, simple aren't there.  It points pretty clearly to the price reflecting fundamentals.

The chart on Chinese car ownership is an important.  Eyeballing it, the number of cars seems to have risen about sixfold over the period in which prices began to skyrocket.  And that's just China, and only looking at cars.

Some of the conspiracy theorists are simply people with bubbles on the brain, too, I suspect -- having now seen the housing bubble pop, they're looking at this in the same way, thinking "There's no way prices could rise so quickly due to fundamentals."  But, as you know, it's quite possible.  And the US energy secretary told us as much when he said they were projecting rises of almost 20% in price for every 1% increase in demand.

You've got a fixed supply and a very inelastic demand curve, so as demand shifts outwards with the emerging markets needing more and more oil, price rises should be quite steep.  That's at least what I think is going on.  It reads more like a textbook S-D situation than an Enron-style process of manipulation.

Conservatives want live babies so they can raise them to be dead soldiers. - George Carlin

by Drew J Jones (myfriends@thisispancakes.com) on Fri Jun 27th, 2008 at 09:08:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Is there any evidence that intermediaries are making extraordinary profits? Independent refiners are getting hammered, and HiD and others see no evidence that traders are cornering the market. Jerome recalls that if speculators have caused price spikes it has been because some traders have had to close out short positions betting on lower prices.

So, it would seem "extraordinary profits" are accruing to producers, be it the oil majors or OPEC. Given that there if no slack of production capacity over actual production (unlike in the 80's), the problem seems to be lack of production capacity. Refining capacity is also a bottleneck.

What speculation does is reduce price friction so that prices can more easily respond to (upward) pressures. Given that industrial developments to increase production capacity take years, and claims (in particular by Francois) that as a price for energy $150/bbl is already too high, it would seem that what speculation has done is create a price overshoot by decoupling the time scale of oil price movements from the time scale of energy infrastructure development.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Jun 27th, 2008 at 09:40:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well if the risk of Iranian invasion is adding say, $30 to current prices - which should suppress long term demand somewhat - what is the effect of the Iranian invasion NOT happening - or being perceived to become v. low risk - e.g. with election of Obama? Would that mean that the unwinding of this risk should reduce prices by $60 - to get back to no risk premium, and to compensate for previous over-pricing (risk turned out to be 0) when invasion didn't happen)?

Seems to me risk premiums always seem to work one way, and never compensate when risks are not realised and much more benign scenarios unfold.

"It's a mystery to me - the game commences, For the usual fee - plus expenses, Confidential information - it's in my diary..."

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot dotty communists) on Fri Jun 27th, 2008 at 01:41:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That might be because the risk premiums are generally overestimated as a source of price increases. Or it might be because we only talk about the risk premiums when prices are already going up fast and for a multitude of reasons, and then the removal of the risk premium could easily be eaten up by the general upwards movement (assuming that the risk drops in a continuous fashion). Or it might be that prices are not path-independent, so you don't recoup all the premium in any case. Or any combination.

- Jake

If you only spend 20 minutes of the rest of your life on economics, go spend them here.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sat Jun 28th, 2008 at 04:02:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

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