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I want to go Darwin on the SUV crowd.

Nature will do it first. You can only watch, not participate.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Fri Jun 27th, 2008 at 12:01:35 PM EST
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Because this comment creeps me out, I want to clarify that I'm not advocating for the extinction of people but of an irresponsible lifestyle.  Must make that VERY clear!!!  I wish no one actual harm.

"Pretending that you already know the answer when you don't is not actually very helpful." ~Migeru.
by poemless on Fri Jun 27th, 2008 at 12:18:46 PM EST
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$300 a barrel will very likely kill people if it happens suddenly.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Fri Jun 27th, 2008 at 12:19:54 PM EST
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Yes, that's the problem.  As much as I enjoy watching the SUV crowd get financially slaughtered by gas prices, it's important to keep in mind that this can be life and death stuff for many people across the globe.

Conservatives want live babies so they can raise them to be dead soldiers. - George Carlin
by Drew J Jones (myfriends@thisispancakes.com) on Fri Jun 27th, 2008 at 12:26:44 PM EST
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I'm actually trying to be serious.  High gas prices have sent this country into a "going green" frenzy.  I'm not delighting in people being financially slaughtered.  I'm delighting in people who are forced to find alternative ways, more responsible ways to live.  

What about green jobs?  Will scary high energy prices not stimulate this sector?  We live in a country where there is so much waste.  Which means there is a lot we can afford to throw away.  Isn't it a good thing if we are forced to be more conservative and resourceful?  Can a crisis not present an opportunity to radically restructure our priorities.  

I'm not advocating for Shock Doctrine.  The shock is already here.  Do we try to undo it and return to the status quo, which is frankly going to lead to more shock?

"Pretending that you already know the answer when you don't is not actually very helpful." ~Migeru.

by poemless on Fri Jun 27th, 2008 at 12:38:44 PM EST
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There is an opportunity to invest in green jobs, but who's going to do the investment? Who has the capital? Does the US have the stomach for <shudder> public investment if the private sector doesn't step up to the plate because they don't see the opportunity to make a quick buck?

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Jun 27th, 2008 at 12:44:36 PM EST
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But if the demand is there, or if people see an industry headed in a certain direction, there is the opportunity to make money.  Building codes are changing and people are desiring more energy efficient homes, so they need people trained in this field.

I've even heard someone talking about starting a turbine industry in Detroit to replace jobs lost from the auto industry.  

There has to still be a handful of visionaries who are looking for long-term investments.  The 20th Century had its Fords.  The 21st has its Guillets.  Right?


"Pretending that you already know the answer when you don't is not actually very helpful." ~Migeru.

by poemless on Fri Jun 27th, 2008 at 01:04:43 PM EST
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I saw a fellow from this organization speaking last night and was pretty impressed:

Green for All

"Pretending that you already know the answer when you don't is not actually very helpful." ~Migeru.

by poemless on Fri Jun 27th, 2008 at 01:57:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm not delighting in people being financially slaughtered.

Sorry, should've been more clear: I wasn't suggesting you were delighting in it.  Rest assured that there was a lot of self-criticism in my comment, because I'm probably more guilty than most when it comes to not considering how other parts of the world are not able to cope with it while enjoying listening to energy slobs here squeal about gas prices.

I'm not sure I agree that high gas prices have sent the country into a "going green" frenzy.  We've spent a week talking about drilling off the coast of Florida.  I think they'll push green energy eventually, but the country has a way to go before it gets religion on this.  I'm sure there's a disconnect, as seems to be a constant this year, between discussion at the national level in the press and what's going on at the local level.

And things are probably different in Chicago from DC.  Here people are still in the Bitch & Moan stage of energy consciousness.  More people are taking public transit, but many are not, and many still believe cheap energy will return.

I'm glad to see higher energy.  That's the only way we're going to get green energy to market.  The dirty shit has to be made too expensive.

Conservatives want live babies so they can raise them to be dead soldiers. - George Carlin

by Drew J Jones (myfriends@thisispancakes.com) on Fri Jun 27th, 2008 at 12:50:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
poemless:
The shock is already here.

You know, I've the creeping suspicion it's not. It's still coming. What the world is currently seeing could be the proverbial iceberg tip.

Not that I'm pessimist - yet. I think an energy crisis does have the potential to reshape western consumerism dramatically. For better, or worse.

(Like the sig!)

by Nomad on Fri Jun 27th, 2008 at 12:54:39 PM EST
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As will global warming.  

What's the scenario where we stop using obscene amounts of pollution-producing energy and we all live?  Appealing to the goodness of people's hearts seems to have a lower success rate than appealing to their pocket books.

"Pretending that you already know the answer when you don't is not actually very helpful." ~Migeru.

by poemless on Fri Jun 27th, 2008 at 12:28:23 PM EST
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The scenario where the "serious" people listen to these guys instead of laughing them out of town?

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Jun 27th, 2008 at 12:31:02 PM EST
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As will global warming.
We'll see about that...

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Fri Jun 27th, 2008 at 03:18:25 PM EST
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But people still aren't making the connection between the fact that the weather's gone absolutely insane and climate change.

What's it going to take?  Losing New Orleans didn't do anything to spark a conversation, let alone spur action.  Atlanta and Charlotte coming pretty damned close to running out of drinking water didn't do anything but lead the wingers to stand in front of the Georgia State House to pray.  Australia is now in what seems to be a permanent state of drought.

People aren't going to get climate change until West Antarctica or Greenland go, and have Wolf Blitzer leading us with video of the Potomac reaching the White House steps.

Conservatives want live babies so they can raise them to be dead soldiers. - George Carlin

by Drew J Jones (myfriends@thisispancakes.com) on Fri Jun 27th, 2008 at 05:56:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]
According to Flood Maps you need a sea level rise of at least 6m for water to reach the White House's lawn.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Jun 27th, 2008 at 06:04:50 PM EST
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nifty site. NYC does surprisingly well. 1m has zero effect, 2m minor ones in southern Queens and southeast Brooklyn, 3m starts really hurting in south Queens. The most vulnerable area in the region is on the western shore of the inlet that runs roughly parallel west of the Hudson in Jersey - i.e. places like Elizabeth and Newark, and the Atlantic shoreline along southern Queens and Nassau county on Long Island.
by MarekNYC on Fri Jun 27th, 2008 at 06:21:43 PM EST
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It also shows the Dead Sea flooding, well before sea levels rise enough for it to be connected to the Mediterranean.
by gk (g k quattro due due sette "at" gmail.com) on Fri Jun 27th, 2008 at 11:51:29 PM EST
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Huh, at +7m, my apartment building becomes an island.  The other two get flooded.

Conservatives want live babies so they can raise them to be dead soldiers. - George Carlin
by Drew J Jones (myfriends@thisispancakes.com) on Fri Jun 27th, 2008 at 06:55:28 PM EST
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Not to mention that much of eastern Jersey becomes a salt marsh, along with southern Queens. It really gets interesting at 14 meters.  In London one certainly wants to be on the north side of the Thames. New Orleans becomes an aquatic park.  Houston has a beach. It used to be called Pasadena.  Texas City, along with its refineries is under at least 25 feet of water.

As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Fri Jun 27th, 2008 at 10:45:42 PM EST
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Doesn't matter which side of the Thames you are, London becomes a toxic swamp with a few meters rise, and the foundations of any tall building get way too suspect for continued use.
Same goes for NY: it fares a lot better than I would have thought (by the way it's only a website and may be wrong: there are areas where I know they'd be flooded earlier than reported), but I certainly wouldn't set foot in a Manhattan skyscraper that was not built for amphibian use.

Earth provides enough to satisfy every man's need, but not every man's greed. Gandhi
by Cyrille (cyrillev domain yahoo.fr) on Sat Jun 28th, 2008 at 02:47:56 AM EST
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"Dieu se rit des hommes qui se plaignent des conséquences alors qu'ils en chérissent les causes" Jacques-Bénigne Bossuet
by Melanchthon on Sat Jun 28th, 2008 at 06:37:52 AM EST
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This comic book was actually published in 1968. At the time, the climate change and subsequent flooding of NYC was triggered by a nuclear war in 1980.

Europeans think a hundred miles is a long way. Americans think a hundred years is a long time.
by Bernard on Sun Jun 29th, 2008 at 12:28:05 PM EST
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My understanding of the landscape of Manhattan is that the tall buildings are built on bedrock.  This includes the tip, from the Battery up through the Wall Street area.  Then there is  a drop off until you get to mid-town.  I am certainly not an expert on the subject, but have picked up those tidbits over the years.

One shudders to think of the consequences of submerging much of the Jersey shore, home as it is to refineries, chemical plants and old manufactures. Same for Texas City and the Houston Ship Channel.  Somehow I doubt that a bath is what the environmental doctor ordered here.

As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Sat Jun 28th, 2008 at 01:44:46 PM EST
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High tide will get you a meter.
by det on Sun Jun 29th, 2008 at 10:01:42 AM EST
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$300 a barrel will very likely kill people if it happens suddenly.
Especially people in exporting countries on the recieving end of the MEF's...

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Fri Jun 27th, 2008 at 03:17:04 PM EST
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I was actually supportive of your point, and was pointing optimistically that nature was pushing us - hard - in the right direction, because theyre is no other choice.

It is precisely if we go green that we'll avoid the worse fates you mention.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Fri Jun 27th, 2008 at 01:14:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

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