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At 10% financing for 5 years, an extra £200, £300, £350 or £550 correspond to a purchase price of  £9600,  £14000, £17000 and £26000 respectively. How far away can electric cars for those prices be? The G-Wiz costs £8000.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Jun 27th, 2008 at 05:20:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Is that including the electricity?
by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Fri Jun 27th, 2008 at 06:20:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Hmm, these are additional costs over the current cost of fuel which (see Francois above) is commensurate with the wholesale cost of electricity, which is converted in electric cars at a higher efficiency than in internal combustion engines.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Jun 27th, 2008 at 06:39:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Assuming a 50A charge current and 10,000,000 cars - which is one third of the current UK total - that would need a potential extra worst case peak capacity of 110GW.

You can smear that out because not everyone will plug in at exactly the same moment, but if a third of the cars are charging at once, that's 36GW - which is around half the UK's current peak capacity of 75GW.

You can design trade-offs, where a lower charge current - 13A would be ideal - takes longer, but then you get into all kinds of interesting situations where people can be marooned at remote destinations or trapped at home waiting for their cars to charge.

You can also enforce off-peak charging, which might solve the capacity problem, but can create similar difficulties for those times when someone needs transport immediately.

Also - cost and complication. And security. Not everyone has a garage. Whether you charge at 50A or 13A, you're going to have mains cables poking out of houses and running across pavements - extra fun when it rains. And good luck trying to park more than 10m from your home. Or streets will have to be rewired with charging points and some kind of billing system.

And so on. It's not a simple 'Let's go electric.' There are some serious practical issues to solve before electric driving becomes a realistic alternative.

So there has to be a push, either in the form of government subsidy, or in much lower prices, before people will accept these restrictions. I suspect many consumers who can afford to will continue to pay an insane petrol tax, and won't sit down and do a comparative calculation to see how much they could save unless someone holds a gun to their heads.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Fri Jun 27th, 2008 at 07:52:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Right, it's not easy but it's not impossible. And at $200/bbl people there will be an incentive for car manufacturers to produce electric cars that cost less than £50k...

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Jun 28th, 2008 at 05:04:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It's not the cost of the cars, it's the cost of the infrastructure.

I used to live in a flat in a Gergian terrace with - almost uniquely for Bath - plenty of parking space outside.

How would I recharge my car? With a long lead out of a window?

And let's not think too hard what happens if someone has visitors over. If they all want to recharge overnight, how is that going to work? What happens if someone can't find a socket and needs to be at work tomorrow?

You can't just swap to electric cars overnight - you need to replace the current petrol distribution infrastructure with something equivalent. Which is not a small job.

Aside from generation, some areas won't have enough local distribution capacity, and you have to solve that final connection problem. Putting pavement level sockets in front of a terrace for a couple of hundred cars wouldn't be cheap or simple - never mind working out a billing system that works fairly. The sockets would have to be everywhere that cars park regularly, otherwise people and cars will be stranded.

Once you add security and accounting, it turns into an impressively untrivial and very much uncheap country-sized project.

You can either go down that route, or you can keep the existing infrastructure and replace it with industrial high-current filling stations which can recharge a car in a few minutes. But then you need a kA delivery and battery system, and that technology isn't available yet.

So the best you can hope for from the current state of the art is some mitigation for the middle classes and upwards, who have garages and will be able to pay for the extra installation costs. It will take some pressure off petrol prices, but it's not - yet - a realistic alternative.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Sat Jun 28th, 2008 at 11:43:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I keep thinking synthetic fuels (such as DME) from renewable electricity should be part of the answer because they reduce the required amount of retrofitting of the infrastructure, but those will be more expensive than current fuels and we can't deploy them immediately either.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Jun 28th, 2008 at 11:48:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Absolutely.

This ties in with "stranded wind", and liquid fuels as an energy vector.

Norway's Norsk Hydro "fixed"  nitrates from cheap

hydro power

since 1907.

I'm sure I read somwhere recently about some US academic who has invented a new process for fixing CO2 and H2O into hydrocarbons with a great deal of potential for getting the costs right down.

The cost of synthetic hydrocarbons should essentially place a "cap" on non-renewables.

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Sat Jun 28th, 2008 at 09:36:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The cost of synthetic hydrocarbons should essentially place a "cap" on non-renewables.

Except for the delay in building the industrial plant to manufacture the synthfuels.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Jun 29th, 2008 at 02:07:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]
How would I recharge my car? With a long lead out of a window?
Plug it into the block heater outlet.

If they all want to recharge overnight, how is that going to work?
Plugs are cheap, and I'm sure an extra block heater outlet or two per house can be afforded.

I've been having some talks with my local housing organization board or however you translate it (ie the elected board running the finances of the building) after I moved in about were I could recharge my electric scooter. We found a couple of outlets on a wall and it worked out fine.

Now, the good thing is that this got my good neighbours (ie the board) thinking: what are they going to do when everyone else in the house starts buying electrics and plug-in hybrids?

So they are already looking at the capacity of the wires, and where to put the outlets and so on.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Sat Jun 28th, 2008 at 05:01:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Every Finnish apartment parking space has electric outlets for each car. They are used for preheating the oil in the sump during the winter.  Most of them are on timers, so they are only 'live' from say 6 am to 8 am. You plug in when you get home at night and the car warms up quickly in the morning.

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Sat Jun 28th, 2008 at 06:37:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Okay - I checked the ratings for these, and the power is around 350W for a typical heater.

A typical car is going to need at least 3KW, and possibly 30kW if you want a much faster charging time.

So this will work for scooters, but not for cars.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Sun Jun 29th, 2008 at 07:52:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I agree. I was pointing out that some of the infrastructure exists in the Nordic countries. These sockets are also provided at corporate parking spaces. BTW both these domestic and corporate outlets are rarely used with our increasingly mild winters - at least in the south of Finland.

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Sun Jun 29th, 2008 at 08:33:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I think they are electronically limited, or something like that, to 6A. So that would make it almost 1400 W. But I'm not sure. I do know I've pulled 900 W from one ot these as I have this tiny cheap multi-metre.

You absolutely won't need 30 kW as trickle charge would be the thing. A full charge could take 8 hours without creating a fuss.

If a PHEV will have a battery of 10 kWh and a true electric 30 kWh (WAG's), 1.25 kW and 3.75 kW respectively would suffice.

For fast charging (like 10-15 minutes) three phase power at a filling station would be the reasonable alternative.

Such a filling station would need some really impressive power lines by the way. Say you want to be able to charge six 30 kWh electrics at the same time, in 15 minutes. Then you'd need 0.72 MW's.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Sun Jun 29th, 2008 at 12:21:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]
If the heater plugs are wired directly back to the individual dwelling unit, so that the billing stays together, there should be no problem.  Even at 115VAC, as in the USA, 3 #12AWG wires will carry sufficient current to charge a car for more than 200 feet.  At the higher voltages used in Europe, the situation improves.  I find it hard to imagine that any builder installed conduit less than one half inch trade size, American. Wires will fit, it is a specific application, and if necessary, codes could be amended to allow reuse of existing pathways for such a use, especially if access is purpose metered.

If sanity be culturally normative, then by the norms of this culture I claim insanity.
by ARGeezer (argeezer a in a circle yahoo dot com) on Sun Jun 29th, 2008 at 01:55:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It's not the cost of the cars, it's the cost of the infrastructure.

I disagree completely with that. A back of the hand calculation will show that upgrading the grid a bit and building some new reactors will be far cheaper than buying millions of electric cars.

I wouldn't be surprised if the cost of the new cars will be a magnitude, or two(!) bigger than that of the new infrastructure.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Sat Jun 28th, 2008 at 05:05:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Not in the UK. I've never seen a block heater before, and I have no idea what it does.

Who pays for the electricity you use if you plug yourself into it?

There are around a hundred parking spaces in front of the terrace I mentioned, and maybe another thirty spaces around the back. At 13A that's an extra distribution capacity of around 400kVA.

I don't know how much it costs to upgrade a distribution transformer, but I'd guess it's at least equivalent to a handful of cars. Then add a billing and accounting system, and it's Not Simple.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Sat Jun 28th, 2008 at 06:15:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]
My scooter uses so little electricity that we have decided just to ignore it and put the cost on the building, that is, everyone in the building pays a few cents a year on their rent to finance my scooter recharging.

Eventually as everyone get these things and charge cars instead of scooters, it will become a relevant cost.

But if you look at the picture of the outlet, it has a lock. Only with the right key can it be used. And measuring the consumption should not be hard. After all, it is probably already done somehow. Or possibly you can use as much power as you want when you manage to get hold of one of the leased parking spots, which all have these outlets. The you also get the key.

All household power consumption data in this city is remotely measured and sent directly to the power company. I don't know if they use the internet, the GSM net or even the power lines themselves, but somehow they do it. But I guess you could play around a little with the wires and software and integrate the heaters into this system, if it's not already done.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Sat Jun 28th, 2008 at 07:34:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
My scooter uses so little electricity that we have decided just to ignore it and put the cost on the building, that is, everyone in the building pays a few cents a year on their rent to finance my scooter recharging.

Eventually as everyone get these things and charge cars instead of scooters, it will become a relevant cost.

But if everyone is charging their vehicles, then it can still be a shared cost.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Jun 29th, 2008 at 02:05:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Not everyone will be, because not everyone will own a car.

Car ownership in that terrace isn't more than 50%, so it's going to be hard to persuade the other 50% that they should share the cost.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Sun Jun 29th, 2008 at 07:55:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The easiest thing if you don't want to fiddle with electronics would be to put the additional costs on top of the rental cost to have a reserved parking lot. Everyone who drives would use about as much power and that amount needn't be regsitered, as electricity is so cheap compared to gasoline.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Sun Jun 29th, 2008 at 12:17:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Putting pavement level sockets in front of a terrace for a couple of hundred cars wouldn't be cheap or simple - never mind working out a billing system that works fairly. The sockets would have to be everywhere that cars park regularly, otherwise people and cars will be stranded.

Having some experience in contracting I can say that such a prospect would set Consulting Electrical Engineers and Electrical Contractors to drooling.  Electrifying your 200 car lot would be simple in an underground or indoor lot.  Buried utilities in an outdoor lot would be more expensive.  I used to figure $100/foot for concrete encased underground conduit.  Line the cars up nose to nose on 10' centers and you would have 1000' of trench.  

More likely, folks would learn to love the sight of painted, exposed galvanized, rigid conduit for a fraction of that price.  With an exposed installation time to install would probably be well less than a month.  Such a project on a nationwide scale would definitely stimulate the economy.  It would be a good time to be an electrical contractor.  It ain't rocket science.

Designing a metering system that would accommodate time of day dependent rates and that could read I.D. codes embedded in the electric vehicle and in a card carried by the user is mostly a problem of selecting and getting agreement on standards.  Were conduit laid out to accommodate a full allotment of 200 vehicles, wire and metering devices could be added as demand builds.  This would allow time to upgrade the distribution infrastructure as required.  I have seen estimates that existing generating capacity would suffice for charging cars were the load shifted to minimum load hours, such as 12:00-5:00 AM.  

If sanity be culturally normative, then by the norms of this culture I claim insanity.

by ARGeezer (argeezer a in a circle yahoo dot com) on Sun Jun 29th, 2008 at 01:15:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]
In the UK you could solve the metering problem with charging keys. People who don't pay their bills regularly here have a plastic key with the inevitable microprocessor inside it, and they can top it up at newsagents. Using a similar system would make supply independent of house metering, which would be a good thing. There are other alternatives, like radio ID tags for the car. But any fair system is literally going to need millions of meter units.

I don't think you can run exposed conduits here, because most of these installations won't be in lots, they'll be on pavements. You can't run conduits across pavements without turning them into an obstacle course. So they'd have to be suspended or run underground. £100/ft might be reasonable in the UK. The terrace is maybe 600ft long, and you'd need access points on both sides of the street. Let's call it 1000ft in total.

£100k, not including metering - for one terrace, with a few hundred people living in it. Scale that to the entire city and the total is upwards of £100m.

Now - you could make people pay for the installation, but it's going to add a £2k-£3k premium to the price of the car, and you may get a mess if you do things that way.

Top down £100m wouldn't be impossible, but it would need some serious cheerleading from both local and national government. Bath wasted £35m (!) getting a showcase spa project finished, but councils are usually less keen to spend money on essential infrastructure than on giant white elephant projects.

Either way it's something that has to be organised - there are only so many electric cars you can sell to people with garages, and if you want ordinary people to start using them, the transition is going to cost money.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Sun Jun 29th, 2008 at 08:21:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Double the cost for your 200 car parking terrace to include the cost of meters and wiring. At 200K for the complex the payoff would be around 2000/month. Assume two cars per residence and divide by 100 and you have a 20/household monthly infrastructure charge, plus, of course, the cost of electricity, and that is for two cars.  For those who need less than 100km/day of range this could be a very affordable solution.  I wonder if enterprising sorts will devise wholesale electric conversion processes for gasoline powered vehicles.  Replace the engine and gas tank with an electric motor and batteries.  If that could be done at a fraction of the cost of a new electric vehicle it would greatly reduce the size of the pile of redundant vehicles.

If sanity be culturally normative, then by the norms of this culture I claim insanity.
by ARGeezer (argeezer a in a circle yahoo dot com) on Sun Jun 29th, 2008 at 01:42:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

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