Display:
Tablet ignites debate on Messiah and Resurrection.

Mr. Knohl said that it was less important whether Simon was the messiah of the stone than the fact that it strongly suggested that a savior who died and rose after three days was an established concept at the time of Jesus. He notes that in the Gospels, Jesus makes numerous predictions of his suffering and New Testament scholars say such predictions must have been written in by later followers because there was no such idea present in his day.

But there was, he said, and "Gabriel's Revelation" shows it.

"His mission is that he has to be put to death by the Romans to suffer so his blood will be the sign for redemption to come," Mr. Knohl said. "This is the sign of the son of Joseph. This is the conscious view of Jesus himself. This gives the Last Supper an absolutely different meaning. To shed blood is not for the sins of people but to bring redemption to Israel."

Were this so, it would have profound effects on Christianity imo.


You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Sat Jul 5th, 2008 at 05:54:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Eh, if it survived Nag Hammadi I can't see this making much difference.
by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Sat Jul 5th, 2008 at 06:04:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It builds on the Gnostic focus of Nag Hammadi, the concepts of which remain largely in academia.  There was never a simple idea that could easily enter mainstream thought. This tablet is different. The message is clear:' Jesus died to redeem Israel, not to redeem all the sinners in the world'. I'd say that could change a rather core idea of the faith.

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Sat Jul 5th, 2008 at 06:19:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I think the correct 'message' is: we have yet another, even more concrete evidence that proto-Christians integrated and modified a pre-existing messiah tradition (with or without a real-life Jesus enacting the role), and it will be ignored or explained by the large majority of believers like all other discrepancies before.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Sat Jul 5th, 2008 at 06:24:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You may be right. But I see this pushing hovering Christians further away from a faith that they are already deserting in large numbers.

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Sat Jul 5th, 2008 at 06:33:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It will be ignored and will make no real difference. Christianity has always been based on expediency, not history. There's no such as thing as Christianity in any unified sense - there's a near-infinite number of reinterpretations of a core mythology which are used to support a bumper-sized catalogue of different moral and tribal positions.

This would be one more moral+tribal position. It might make for some awkward shuffling, but it's not going to persuade world+dog that it's always been just a bit of story telling.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Sat Jul 5th, 2008 at 09:30:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]
An alternative use, preferable IMHO, would be to use the demonstration of this pre-existing "die and be resurrected in three days" theme to refocus at least some of the faithful on the moral and ethical teachings of Jesus as recorded in the many gospels and on the possibilities of personal transcendence they offer. The pathetic little miracle story enshrined by the Council of Nicea is intellectually and emotionally stultifying.  I strongly suspect it was grafted onto the teachings of a man who was talking about other and better things by "followers" who had lost any comprehension of what he was teaching and had other agendas to serve.

As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Sat Jul 5th, 2008 at 09:54:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
' Jesus died to redeem Israel, not to redeem all the sinners in the world'

I don't think there's any doubt that Christianity was in the first instance a Jewish sect.  However, whether the Gentiles were included in the redemption was a crux early on, and quickly decided. Paul's epistles (from c. 50 AD on) clearly develop the "redemption of the Gentiles" view. Even though the Synoptic Gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke, from the 60s AD on) insist on lining up the legendary life of Jesus with a mythical Messiah profile (including back-references to the Prophets), you can read (the resurrected Jesus appears to the disciples and gives them proof of his physical existence):

Luke,  ch 24, King James version

44: And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
45: Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
46: And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
47: And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. (my bold)

Another point to remember is that the entire New Testament was written in the lingua franca Greek, not in the vernacular Aramaic or religious Hebrew.

I'm not at all surprised that evidence for a three-day resurrection Messiah myth should surface, it seems obvious to me that there was one, and it was part of the frame of interpretation used by the early Christians. But the very early passage from Jewish sect to universalist religion is all the same fairly well documented.

In any case, beyond that, I agree with those who say it won't make much difference to believers today. Either they habitually ignore history (and will go on doing so), or, if they're of the open-minded learned kind, they already know what I've sketched out above.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sun Jul 6th, 2008 at 05:30:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]
A must-read: "La Résistance au Christianisme" Raoul Vaneigem, Fayard, 1993.

"Dieu se rit des hommes qui se plaignent des conséquences alors qu'ils en chérissent les causes" Jacques-Bénigne Bossuet
by Melanchthon on Sun Jul 6th, 2008 at 06:07:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]
could also be interpreted as a symbolic death and resurrection rite.

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Sun Jul 6th, 2008 at 07:28:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Display:
Login
. Make a new account
. Reset password
Occasional Series