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that letter is entirely unfair its not he no side that colluded with rendition it the yes side, the no side don't claim we're neutral, its he yes side that say or neutrality will remain firm.
by lostexpectation on Thu Jun 5th, 2008 at 12:05:13 PM EST
What? The no side aren't going on about neutrality? What Ireland are you in?
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu Jun 5th, 2008 at 12:37:58 PM EST
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the no side say our neutrality is dying, the yes side claim its perfectly intact, who is lying?
by lostexpectation on Tue Jun 17th, 2008 at 10:51:43 AM EST
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Our neutrality has been a crock since day zero. Cynical nonsense.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Jun 17th, 2008 at 10:56:15 AM EST
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Neutral against the Germans, neutral against the Soviets, neutral against Iraq ...
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Jun 17th, 2008 at 11:01:29 AM EST
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but somehow you blame the no side for this rather then the yes side that's being in power all this time, as i said you letter is totally unfair.
by lostexpectation on Tue Jun 17th, 2008 at 01:31:33 PM EST
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Every single decision in the "common security and defence policy" section of the Lisbon treaty is "unanimous" so Ireland would retain its veto to either not allow action or not take part in it.

The intention behind the treaty seems to be to eventually develop a common defence. Defence is defined as <blockquote.missions outside the Union for peace-keeping, conflict prevention and strengthening international security in accordance with the principles of the United Nations Charter</blockquote>(see Articles 42-46)

Whether "Irish neutrality is dying" in general is a matter entirely of internal Irish politics.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jun 17th, 2008 at 11:19:49 AM EST
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well the internal yes politicians are saying we're still neutral which is a lie, again its the yes side being dishonest, you can't argue about something changing without defining it first.  
by lostexpectation on Thu Jun 19th, 2008 at 12:20:23 AM EST
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Wait, so you're saying that the no side claimed Ireland is already no longer neutral? On that you agree with Colman, then.

Then they should have been campaigning on restore Irish neutrality, not protect or preserve it.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Jun 19th, 2008 at 10:30:58 AM EST
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Yes it is a polemic, and there are contradictions on both sides.  But I want the Treaty passed because with the Human rights charter and a more cohesive EU foreign policy structure it will be more difficult for the US to pick off the weaker and more compliant EU members one by one.  Call it a case of collective bargaining if you will - what chance has Ireland, on its own, of opposing US policy demands?  Now if we could blame the EU for being obstructive that would be a different matter entirely.

"It's a mystery to me - the game commences, For the usual fee - plus expenses, Confidential information - it's in my diary..."
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot dotty communists) on Thu Jun 5th, 2008 at 03:35:42 PM EST
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Why is the EU to blame for rendition?

Do I have to remind you that the only parliaments that have actually investigated rendition are the European Parliament and the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe?

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jun 17th, 2008 at 11:22:16 AM EST
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the eu colluded with rendition on a eu basis, search the new transatlantic agenda on statewatch, also these meps national governments colleagues colluded with rendition even the socialist ones in spain and portugal who claimed to (iraq)anti-war
by lostexpectation on Thu Jun 19th, 2008 at 12:24:09 AM EST
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Right, so the problem is the National governments (and the EU only through the Council, which is the Member states' government), not the EU.

Just like the "democratic deficit" is the national governments' fault.

Look, we documented the national governments' pathetic collusion or coverup here in gory detail, you don't have to remind me about Zapatero's government

Where is the outrage?

There are many parallels between the GAL dirty war and the Bush administration's war on terror. For European political purposes, it is the CIA rendition flights and secret prisons that are more relevant. This quotation from the Financial Times

"I am not disposed to putting a government which is a friend and ally in the pillory on the basis of suppositions and rumours," said José Bono, Spain's defence minister, after the allegations emerged.
is particularly painful to me, as it indicates that Spain's PSOE has not learnt anything from the GAL affair. If the Spanish experience is any guide, I suppose it is not surprising that the CIA's human rights violations on EU soil, and the apparent indifference, if not complicity, of our governments, do not elicit a stronger outcry from the people, the media, or our political representatives. Our only hope, as in Spain 15 years ago, is that the judiciary will do their job. Don't expect political leadership, and don't expect a popular movement for human rights. Dirty war is, indeed, perceived as necessary to preserve our way of life. Condi Rice will feel at home this week. How disgraceful.


When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Jun 19th, 2008 at 10:29:15 AM EST
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Under whose control is Shannon airport? The EU Commission, the Irish Government, or the US Pentagon?

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Jun 19th, 2008 at 10:32:21 AM EST
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Incidentially, talking of "the No side" or the "No campaign" is pretty much nonsensical. The only thing the no campaigns had in common was calling for  a No.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Jun 17th, 2008 at 11:25:45 AM EST
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well considering you used the phrase as shorthand too,

"Promoted by Colman - it's not an unfair summary of most of the No campaign, in my view."

it still doesn't justify your letter.

by lostexpectation on Thu Jun 19th, 2008 at 10:22:00 AM EST
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frank's letter
by lostexpectation on Thu Jun 19th, 2008 at 10:26:17 AM EST
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