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Appalling in what way?

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jul 2nd, 2008 at 06:05:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The "How dare you gloat at us" ones? The "We'll kill you all and take your oil" ones? The "We have to have cheap oil" ones?
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Jul 2nd, 2008 at 06:44:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Hmm, I must have missed those.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jul 2nd, 2008 at 07:00:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, that's just one unhinged guy.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jul 2nd, 2008 at 07:09:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]
One completely nuts, but there are others who are strange.
The hysterics about people freezing to death this winter if we don't immediately get very low oil prices are not particularly impressive, especially in a continent that seems to reckon that 28°C in winter and 15°C in summer are compulsory temperatures inside.

Or the constant "comparisons are not relevant at all because the US are so much bigger, do you realise how long it takes to drive from coast to coast?"
Why would you want to?

A lot of those people seem to me to react like addicts in need of a quick fix. Some ask Jérôme to write about solutions, but dismiss them all when he does. What they call "solutions" mean "ways to get as much oil as we want, cheaply, and right now and forever". I'm unimpressed to say the least.

"The womb that spawned that thing is fertile yet"

by Cyrille (cyrillev domain yahoo.fr) on Wed Jul 2nd, 2008 at 07:16:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Why would you want to?

You're French, so you can't appreciate the concept of "tourist traps".  You have no idea how much crap we can put together in every little town between New York and Los Angeles. ;)

WHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!

by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Wed Jul 2nd, 2008 at 07:19:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Right, so let's create a TouristCrapRail train company, guaranteed to stop in every little town along the way, with time to shop.

"The womb that spawned that thing is fertile yet"
by Cyrille (cyrillev domain yahoo.fr) on Wed Jul 2nd, 2008 at 07:21:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That would require people paying more taxes, and taxes are the handywork of Da Devil here, as you know being in France where there's a functioning news industry.  At best, you can get away with what Obama's will probably wind up doing if he's elected (basically a slightly steeper rise than what Bill Clinton pushed through): Raising taxes on capital gains and the higher income brackets, and lifting the FICA cap, while leaving working- and middle-class brackets alone.  (Right now he says he's going to cut the lower and middle brackets, but I doubt that's going to be affordable when we reach that junction, so it probably won't pass Congress.)

WHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!
by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Wed Jul 2nd, 2008 at 07:42:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Then there's

Crap Towns

which I guess has yet to take off in the US......

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Wed Jul 2nd, 2008 at 07:49:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, people will freeze to death because if they can't afford to individually buy the heating oil they need, there isn't a government program to help them. And proposing that people be provided a minimum ration of heating oil [which is possible since the problem is not yet that there is no oil, but that it's expensive] would be <gasp> socialism.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jul 2nd, 2008 at 07:25:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It is true that people will freeze to death, just like it is true that people will die in car accidents, gun accidents, heat waves, and of loneliness.

What will be interesting is how local governments and social agencies will respond. In New England's poorly insulated houses (many built in the 1920s) with oil furnaces, it is not unusual to go through 200 gallons of oil per month in the winter, which at $5 a gallon is quite a bit of money for those in the social class that typically lives in row houses.

But there are also some pretty tightly knit communities, many the remnants of previous generations of immigrants (e.g., Swedish, Polish, Italian, etc.) and recent immigrants (many from South America). It is not difficult to envision a support system within these communities that could help the most needy. For example, in floods and in the Blitz, people gathered and slept in school gymnasiums. If heating fuel becomes a crisis of that proportion, people will gather and sleep in the gym.

Certainly some people will die in the transition, particularly if they are not connected to their neighbors, but the question is about the scale of the problem.

by asdf on Wed Jul 2nd, 2008 at 08:29:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I've been thinking about this particular concern for a while. A lot of people in the US live in old, poorly maintained buildings. Some could not afford to heat their houses last winter. With heating oil approaching $5.00/gallon, this year could be much worse.

Here is my simplistic approach:

  1. Better home insulation is the first line of defense. Also sealing leaky doors and windows. But this requires investment and some (gasp!) planning. If you can't afford to insulate the whole house, at least do one or two rooms, so people can huddle together there on really cold days. Ideally choose room(s) without an outside wall. Then even if the heat is off, body heat from several people will accumulate and warm up a room.

  2. Thermal underwear. Seriously. With the proper underclothes it is possible to feel too warm even in really cold weather. Pay particular attention to the lower extremities, including wearing thermal socks, also from the underwear supplier. If necessary, put on light gloves and a hat, even when indoors.

  3. No one can possibly freeze while zipped into a half-decent outdoor sleeping bag.

  4. Drink thick soup and keep some high-calorie food around for a quick warmup when necessary.

  5. Don't sit in one place for a long time. Get up and do something instead of just browsing the European Tribune or Daily Kos! (But on this one I will almost certainly not follow my own advice.)
by Ralph on Wed Jul 2nd, 2008 at 01:02:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Isn't that overdramatic?
If it's about life and death, one usually is ready to make some sacrifices. Is heating only a few rooms and to a reasonable temperature, with electricity if need be (a thermopump would be best) really too unamerican?

That wouldn't take any rationing (possibly state help, but is that communist too?). I visited old houses in Sweden (I mean 18th century), and clearly the house was smaller in the winter. Is that not better than death, though?

Moreover, if we don't quickly learn to make do with less burning of oil, there WILL be a lot of deaths. Trying to sustain for a few extra years the most unsustainable of lifestyles is not really helping.

Anyway, I want a government program of course (I am French after all). But short of that, "bring cheap oil or we'll freeze to death" while dismissing any of the lifestyle changes strikes me as the wrong reaction.

"The womb that spawned that thing is fertile yet"

by Cyrille (cyrillev domain yahoo.fr) on Wed Jul 2nd, 2008 at 08:36:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]
And really, freezing to death? As in literally actually, freezing to death, not just hyperbole for "damn it's cold in here"? It is quite possible to survive in a wind-tight tent with a good sleeping bad in sub-zero temperature. I assume the people have access to good quality plastic sheeting and duct tape (as recommended by their government's anti-terror agency or some such...)to tighten up those cracks in their crappy houses a bit. With a few extra blankets I simply do not see how people would freeze to death in even an unheated room. If need be, install a tent in the room to create a smaller enclosed space to heat with body heat. But freezing to death? No way!
by someone (s0me1smail(a)gmail(d)com) on Wed Jul 2nd, 2008 at 08:46:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I think it would be mostly elderly people 'freezing to death', like they also die when there is a heat wave. Pensioners on tight income without an extensive social network and not very active or able to adapt their house to the cold in the ways you suggest.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jul 2nd, 2008 at 08:56:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]
... and rather than funding a local social service infrastructure who knows where those people are living and can check out whether they are doing OK, the US needs to invade some country somewhere that has lots of oil and take it.

Mind you, the last time it was tried it cost a lot more oil than it has generated, but you never know ... look around and there might be a better, safer bet. Nigeria, maybe. 8-)# {ducks, runs for cover}

Utsukushikereba sore de ii

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Wed Jul 2nd, 2008 at 12:09:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I assume the people have access to good quality plastic sheeting and duct tape (as recommended by their government's anti-terror agency or some such...)to tighten up those cracks in their crappy houses a bit.

You know, when Homeland Security was trying to decide on a symbol, my father suggested an eagle soaring up with a strip of duct tape stretched between its talons.  My aunt, always the super-serious bureaucrat, did not see the humor.

Anyway, I suspect you're right.  It'd be uncomfortable, but talk of people freezing to death on a large scale is difficult to imagine.

WHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!

by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Wed Jul 2nd, 2008 at 08:59:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Americans are really good at verbalizing their inner hyperbole. Europeans on the whole are more apt to keep it to themselves. There will be endless incessant whining as this continues, but Americans will adjust on their own as best as they can - while continuing to whine, and asking for government subsidies.

Few are willing to sacrifice by joining the army to participate in an oil grab - but there is a risk that down the road a poor and demoralized America will elect a false prophet that promises a return to the good old days. All countries will face this risk, America slightly more so.

you are the media you consume.

by MillMan (millguy at gmail) on Wed Jul 2nd, 2008 at 03:10:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm not particularly impressed by darkdaze...

Daily Kos: Countdown to $200 oil: International Energy Agency says current prices justified

I dont think the world get our mindset either.  If I am out of work, broke, cold and hungry, I will want my government to go grab the worlds oil. If it means war, then war it is. If we lose our way of life, we are going to be the worse thing the world has ever seen.

The last depression we had no real standing military, Now we have the largest the earth has ever seen. I dont think we will sit and suffer, the mideast will become our next occuppied territories.

by Nomad on Wed Jul 2nd, 2008 at 06:46:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]
He's a bit extreme for Big Orange, but not at all, I would say, for the American public at large. Luckily for the rest of us, they probably can no longer back up the threats and posturing. And it clearly couldn't happen to a nicer bunch of guys.
by PIGL on Wed Jul 2nd, 2008 at 06:56:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I disagree.  That's extreme even for the general public.  The general public isn't getting hit anywhere near that hard.  Not yet at least.

Remember, you have to make adjustments for the Drama Queen factor when reading Daily Kos.  Wonderful site, but Daily Kos really is little more than a giant Prozac advertisement at times.

WHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!

by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Wed Jul 2nd, 2008 at 07:10:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]
And I must disagree in turn. You are probably correct that Joe Average is not seething to invade Iran yet. But our dazed friend is probably correct that Joe could be fairly easily convinced once things really start to bight. Case in point: Iraq. The circumstances and specifics of the pack of lies will differ, but not the outcome. What will prevent the eagerly anticipated bloody conquest of their birthright is "their brother monarchs of the earth."

And yes, I know dKos well...I was a TU and everything for a couple years. Except for the following of the occasional link as last night, I have stayed away since January 1. One of the very few New Years resolutions I have ever kept. Much more civilised here.

by PIGL on Wed Jul 2nd, 2008 at 07:42:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I live in one of the most conservative whack-job cities in the country, and I've never heard the idea of just taking the oil as a proposition. I've heard plenty of people say that the solution to the problem in the middle east is to turn it into glass, but even those are only half-serious. By far, most Americans think that we are in Iraq, etc., for reasons based on good, traditional morality, not to get the oil.
by asdf on Wed Jul 2nd, 2008 at 08:33:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]
What city?

That's been my experience, too.  In fact, the conservatives go out of their way to state that we didn't go for the oil.  I don't think most people believe we went for good reasons anymore, though.  At first, I'm sure most did.  But these days I think people generally believe we went simply for the benefit of Bush's cronies.

WHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!

by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Wed Jul 2nd, 2008 at 08:44:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Colorado Springs.
by asdf on Wed Jul 2nd, 2008 at 08:44:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I'd heard Colorado Springs was coming along quite nicely into the modern era.  I knew it was one of those bizarre survivalistish-conservative western towns for a long time.

WHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!
by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Wed Jul 2nd, 2008 at 08:53:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Nope, it's still one of the most conservative places you can find.

There is a pretty solid lefty community in the downtown area, but the city is very dependent on the military (Fort Carson army base is one of the main Iraq embarkment places, and Peterson AFB, Schriever AFB, the Air Force Academy, and NORTHCOM headquarters are here...) and there's a huge retired military population. Also it has a strong southern flavor with the attendant problems. And there is a big evangelical christian community, including the headquarters of a whole bunch of mission groups that you only will know about if you listen to short wave radio.

Plus we have some world class conservative idiots in our political system, including the famous Doug Bruce, inventor of the TABOR system of tax indexing that has ruined Colorado's finances, and who has only this year been caught kicking a photographer during the legislative swearing-in ceremony and then shortly afterwards calling undocumented workers "illiterate peasants."

Bottom line is that we have a lot of nutjobs around here. But if you don't read the newspaper it's easy to avoid knowing about it!  :-)

by asdf on Wed Jul 2nd, 2008 at 09:13:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]
asdf:
and who has only this year been caught kicking a photographer during the legislative swearing-in ceremony and then shortly afterwards calling undocumented workers "illiterate peasants."

Just wow.

by Nomad on Wed Jul 2nd, 2008 at 09:55:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Nomad, you should consider a tour of some of the more politically "scenic" parts of the USA just to properly calibrate your sense of "Wow."  We have areas here that even hard line, pre-Mandela Afrikaners would find congenial.  As a bonus, some areas are very beautiful, Colorado Springs and San Diego being two examples.  However, it would take a while to properly assess local attitudes.  There are many genuinely friendly people, even in small, rural towns there are usually humane and worldly souls and the really dark side of the others normally only emerges when they feel pressed.

The distance we have come and the distance remaining to go are both impressive.

If sanity be culturally normative, then by the norms of this culture I claim insanity.

by ARGeezer (argeezer a in a circle yahoo dot com) on Wed Jul 2nd, 2008 at 12:27:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
As a virtual alternative one could browse through many of the newspapers in the Gannett family.  My mother used to subscribe to the Tucson Citizen and the LTEs were always a plentiful source of RW foam.  My local paper, The Baxter Bulletin, is also a Gannett paper.  It is the paper of record for North Central Arkansas.  I can only dream of having the Bulletin bought by McClachy.


If sanity be culturally normative, then by the norms of this culture I claim insanity.
by ARGeezer (argeezer a in a circle yahoo dot com) on Wed Jul 2nd, 2008 at 12:45:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]
He was the one I had most in mind in my comment.

There's also his (his capitals) NO WAY I'M GONNA WAIT AN HOUR TO CARPOOL MY TIME IS WAY MORE VALUABLE THAN THAT, next to comments about the absolute need for lower gas prices or people would die.

So... his time (one hour of his time) must be pretty hugely valuable if it tops all that.

"The womb that spawned that thing is fertile yet"

by Cyrille (cyrillev domain yahoo.fr) on Wed Jul 2nd, 2008 at 07:09:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I asked him whether he gets paid by the hour.

I get really annoyed by people who divide their salary by the hours worked and then say "my time is worth this much". If they work one more hour their time is worth less as they don't get paid more, do they?

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jul 2nd, 2008 at 07:15:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Right, assuming he's a salaried worker.

WHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!
by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Wed Jul 2nd, 2008 at 07:17:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, clearly not, given
Carpooling doesnt work for the US corporate professional. I know husband and wife's who couldnt do it , and they worked for the same comapny and both were high level management.  They can come and go as the please and even they said it couldnt work.
The US corporate professional isn't going to freeze to death.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jul 2nd, 2008 at 07:27:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]
This is the real point: Others are going to run low on heating oil because of these slobs.

WHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!
by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Wed Jul 2nd, 2008 at 07:35:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]
They are the ones most likely to be "two Prius" families.

If sanity be culturally normative, then by the norms of this culture I claim insanity.
by ARGeezer (argeezer a in a circle yahoo dot com) on Wed Jul 2nd, 2008 at 12:33:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm amazed by the notion that a high level manager can come and go as he pleases.

Is it really like that in USA? Not here. You'll have much more predictable hours as a rank and file employee.

Nevertheless, my wife and I (pretty reasonably high management level) often trainpool. That is, we find a way to be in the same train (not that we need to of course), even though we are unlikely to finish right at the same time.
But in the meantime you can do stuff on your computer, buy the groceries, get registered at a local library and pay a visit, call friends, just plain take a walk, answer the backlog of mails, write a poem...

If we can do it with a train (not everytime of course -but then if one gets in an emergency until 11pm you can always make contingency plans) when it's just for the sake of the 30mn together, I'm sure carpooling once a week must be doable for the not too obtuse.

"The womb that spawned that thing is fertile yet"

by Cyrille (cyrillev domain yahoo.fr) on Wed Jul 2nd, 2008 at 08:29:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]
"Professionals" in the U.S., including engineering and management staff, have pretty flexible hours. Even though we work longer hours than most Europeans, our timekeeping system is not very rigid.

I would say that in a typical large company (computer, biotech, financial), most employees arrive in the office between 8:00 and 9:00 and leave between 5:00 and 6:00. But perhaps 5-10% will arrive at 6:00, and 10-20% will stay past 7:00 in the evening. Off-site lunches can easily exceed an hour and a half. Many people also work at home, either reading email (managers) or working on their projects (engineers), even during weekends.

Also it is not unusual to take an afternoon off for a dentist appointment, and Elk Fever is a frequent excuse for absence during hunting season.

The technicians (lab bench workers, system operators, phone support people) have more tightly constrained hours, but practically every organization has some form of flexible time. Retail workers have even wierder schedules, usually involving some sort of rotating shift system so that our typical 7-days-a-week, 12-hours-a-day opening hours can be covered.

My limited experience in Europe is that the working environment there is more structured than in the U.S. People here work 45-50 hours a week, but not on a fixed 8 to 5:30 schedule.

by asdf on Wed Jul 2nd, 2008 at 08:43:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't think there is a big difference in weekly working hours between the US and Europe; The main difference in working time comes from longer holidays for the Europeans.

There might be a difference in weekly working hours for the employees and workers, but mainly in large companies. The working time schedule you mention :

most employees arrive in the office between 8:00 and 9:00 and leave between 5:00 and 6:00. But perhaps 5-10% will arrive at 6:00, and 10-20% will stay past 7:00 in the evening. Off-site lunches can easily exceed an hour and a half. Many people also work at home, either reading email (managers) or working on their projects (engineers), even during weekends.
is very similar to what you will see in Europe. And usually, managers work from 9am to 7pm.

For high-level management, in most of the companies, working hours are not limited and there is no fixed time schedule.

 

"Ne te courbe que pour aimer..." René Char

by Melanchthon on Wed Jul 2nd, 2008 at 09:25:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I quite liked the reply that the obvious solution was to let oil appreciate until his time was no longer worth more than the wait.

I also happen that waiting is (if it's not too frequent or too long of course, and having brought a book sure is a safeguard) a very valuable experience in life, but I doubt he would understand.

"The womb that spawned that thing is fertile yet"

by Cyrille (cyrillev domain yahoo.fr) on Wed Jul 2nd, 2008 at 07:19:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Hear, Hear.

WHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!
by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Wed Jul 2nd, 2008 at 07:33:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]

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