European Tribune

Display:
I've been thinking about this "Anglo Disease" thing for a while now.  

I've been trying to be good, spending the summer reading and getting exercise before I return to the cave in August.  

Freiderich List, though much maligned by many economists had it for the most part right.  What List got, and most economists haven't (still), is that the exercise of power over others is everybit a possibility in an "economic" world as it is in a "political" one, so that that the delusion that power exercised in excess by the private sector is somehow morally superior to that by an authoritarian staet is precisely that, a deliusion.  

But by far, the key revelation that I get from List is that of productive power as the compared to money power alone.

Let me be clear, the latter is indicative of the creation of nothing, but the former represents real growth and the creation of real value.

One of the things that amazes me has been the the expansion of the financial sector in the American economy has been accompanied by the destruction of the manufacturing sector.  American economic growth has been predicated on the idea that the financial sector creates something of value. Industrial capital taking the form of mahcines and the like can be called upon to produce vast quantities of goods. Financial capital on the other hand, only reproduces itself and has no value of its own.  One increases the productive powers of the nation, the other does not.

For List, the keystone of any successful national economic strategy was the increase of the productive powers of a nation.  I.e. the ability to manufacture items of value. Financial capital doesn't do this, and in the United States has destroyed a much of the productive power of the nation.

The disturbing question for me is this.

Once we rip out the false value created by the financalization (Migeru correctly pointed out this as the equivalent term to "the Anglo disease" in academic literature. See here.) what remains?

Once you go through and examine the growth sectors of the American economy for the past 2 decades, to what extent did the growth increase the productive powers of the nation?  And to what extent did it drain the supply of capital that could be transformed into productive portions of the economy.  Portions that create actual value.  

My point being that in terms of the productive power of the nation, I think that the US economy is substantially smaller than indicated when you have the financial sector treated as though it were capable fo producing items of value. Put crudely (and in the context I was trying to apply the idea of the "Anglo Disease/Finacalization this spring) while an auto assembly line may be moblized as part of the war fighting machine of a nation, most financial firms are not able to be similiarly converted.

The machinist has greater value in terms of the productive power of the nation than the market analyst.  

So when you look at the productive power of the nation, might it just be the case that in both the United States and Britain, the practice of counting the monetary output of the financial sector as through it were prodcuctive power substantially overstates the amount of economic growth in these countries (and most likely  conceals the collapse of the productive economy in these nations)

The US GDP is roughly 13.8 trillion USD.  (World Bank 2007, same below)

If we change the accounting so that the economic output of the financial sector is not counted as part of the productive power of the nation, then what happens.

Let's say that 66% of the US economy is essentially smoke and mirrors.  Well, then that means that in terms of productive power, the US economy is only a third that indicated by nominal GDP. So in terms of productive power, the US economy is really only about 4.5 trillion USD.

Now let's say that another economy, China, has been much less affected by the distortion of GDP numbers by financialization.  So China's nominal GDP is about 3.3 trillion USD.  

On the other hand, let's say that only something like 10% of the Chinese economy is financial value.  The rest is made up of actual goods and services. So that in terms of productive power, the Chinese economy is 3 trillion USD.

This is substantial, because if we make the comparision in nominal GDP, the Chinese economy is less that 25% that of the US.  But if we compare productive power, then it;s something more like 66%.

In the first case, the economic power of China is inconsequential.  In the latter, it's a serious competitor to the US.

Now, the truth may be that a lot of growth in China is essentially the result of the financial sector as well, so that the productive power of China hasn't been increased.  

The whole things a mess though, becuase the real question is that when the effects of financalization are made transparent, will how will China (and others) respond.  Note that recently the Chinese have started moving their foreign reserves from things like US T-Bills into FDI.  They are purchasing productive assets in the US and in Europe.  

And in exchange, Americans get trinkets.

This is the biggest rip of since the Dutch bought Mahattan.

And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg

by ManfromMiddletown (manfrommiddletown at lycos dot com) on Sun Jul 13th, 2008 at 08:45:39 PM EST
great comment, MfM.

smoke and mirrors indeed...and to compensate for the yawning emptiness created by a life that is fundamentally parasitic, along come the exaggerated postures of fullness, the endless yacking about freedom of markets, light touch regulation, moral certainty and superiority, and even delusions that their 'god' has blessed them, (and can kick any other god's ass).

all b.s.

The person who says it cannot be done should not interrupt the person doing it. Chinese Proverb.

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Sun Jul 13th, 2008 at 09:11:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Half agree. In the US the economy has been badly screwed by replacing a regulatory and tax regime intended to serve society at large, by one intended to serve the financial sector and upper management. However, the financial sector does not represent anywhere near two thirds of the US GDP, and it does provide real services. Think of our dear Leader for example - by bringing together those with capital, with those with productive plans, he makes those wind turbines possible.

But Because of the financial industry's position at the choke point of the flow of money, there is always the potential for using that position to just generate money for itself, without providing any useful services. The trick in regulation is to minimise that sort of behaviour as much as possible, while allowing for useful services. That sort of situation also distorts the market by encouraging those who are most talented, most ambitious, and best positioned to enter into that casino world, rather than other fields.

On China I really disagree. The trick over the next couple generations is actually going to be to minimize the importance of material stuff as a factor in the economy, and replace it with services. Low cost disposable stuff is especially bad. I don't agree with those that say that the growth paradigm is unsustainable, but I am convinced we need to change the nature of economic growth. So far China is catering to the opposite impulse.

Hope this makes sense, I'm keeling over from the insanity of making lasagne from scratch on a hot summer day, so if it is completely incoherent, that's what I'll claim to be the reason.

by MarekNYC on Sun Jul 13th, 2008 at 10:47:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You make sense.

I do agree that where finance capital is aimed at long term investments that involve the creation of productive power they create real value.

But consider the difference between what our dear leader does (setting up deals that allow wind turbines to be built. And these turbines in turn produce electricity that has real value.  Capital in this case is used to create something that creates an item of value that grants a return to the investor.

On the other hand, consider the case of Enron, where "electricity" was made into a commodity, and the point of the investment of capital wasn't to increase the capacity to produce electricity, but to hold it and sell it for a higher price while adding to value to it.

And when you only have construction of peaking plants and you have growth in demand, and you have reduced regular supply as plants are decommissioned.  Then what was previously a regular commodity manufactured to be put on the market , i.e. electricity, is turned into a store of wealth that increases in cost without adding value.  Basically the same amount of power hits the market, but its cost is dramatically increased so that the reason the amount of money this brings in is higher is not because there is more of the thing, but because the market has been manipulated.

I hope that made sense. I wanted to make this distinction in my earlier comment, but I was rambling on and couldn't figure out how to convey my point.

I don't agree with those that say that the growth paradigm is unsustainable, but I am convinced we need to change the nature of economic growth.

In a US government sponsored publication during the late 1950s, the English economist Roy Harrod asked whether there was a point of economic satiation.

That is whether there was a point at which a society had enough material positions so that further economic output was pointless.  He concluded that if this were the case that new outlets for economic growth would have to occur by created a demand for non-material items and leisure.

As a purely domestic matter, I think that there's a strong argument that there is a point of economic satiation, and that much of what passes for economic activity in the modern world is really a form of conspicous consumption that benefits no one and is incredibly wasteful.

If I can be satisfied with a little house amongst the many others in my neighborhood, my need for shelter is met.  

But what happens when a great mansion rises up next to mine, is that my little house becomes but a shack.  And I, no longer satisfied that I live decently, most build a larger home.  The more unequal the distribution of income in a society, the higher the prevalance of consumption is not aimed at satisfying material needs, but exists as a form of conspicous consumption that aims to convey status to others.

It's horribly wasteful, and responsible tremendous environmental damage. It's much the point of ecological economics, and it's the reason that environmentalist love the thesis itself.  I've always thought that Fred Hirsch was the earliest statement of this idea.  But as I read Veblen, I realize that it's been around for at least a century.

This is all speaking domestically.  In international relations, one of the great sources of wasteful consumption is an arms race.  And while the type of status competition that occurs in domestic society is dreadful, rarely does it allow one player to eliminate the existence of another because there is law and order.  

Not so in international relations. The only law is that that the gun makes, and thus the capacity of a society to ramp up production far beyond any need for domestic consumption matters.  Greatly.  The nation that can make the most guns, and place them in the hands of citizens is the one that makes the law.  And the strong prevail upon the week.

As hegemons go, the United States has been remarkably benign.  Professing a liberal ideology that limited the naked exercise of power even more than it did in the case of Britain.  This isn't to say that bad shit didn't happen, merely that as hegemons go the US was pretty harmless.  

If the mantle of hegemony passes to China, will the order they impose be as benign?

It's the regime in power in Beijing that worries me.  And the absence of a tradition of power being limited by the rule of law.

And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg

by ManfromMiddletown (manfrommiddletown at lycos dot com) on Mon Jul 14th, 2008 at 12:08:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]
ManfromMiddletown:
Professing a liberal ideology that limited the naked exercise of power even more than it did in the case of Britain.  This isn't to say that bad shit didn't happen, merely that as hegemons go the US was pretty harmless.  

There are many countries which might not agree with that.

It's true that the US hegemony was relatively benign to its own population. True, you were expected to work three jobs, to consume to order, and to buy into the bullshit. But you didn't, except on rare occasions, have people shooting at you. Unless you were black. Or a native.

Elsewhere in the world - not quite so benign. The US has a long history of invasion and genocide from the Native American apocalypse onwards.

Iraq is not a miraculous and unexpected exception - it's entirely consistent with the outline of US foreign policy for more than a century.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Mon Jul 14th, 2008 at 06:36:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]
for the most part.

With Europe happy, the "interntional community" was thhus approving.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Mon Jul 14th, 2008 at 06:39:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It's true that the US hegemony was relatively benign to its own population. True, you were expected to work three jobs, to consume to order, and to buy into the bullshit. But you didn't, except on rare occasions, have people shooting at you. Unless you were black. Or a native.

Ever heard of Ludlow, Homestead, Matewan, or the Battle of the Overpass?  

There was considerable violence by the same business class that was responsible for American expansion overseas at home against largely working class whites.  It didn't have a thing to do with race, but it did have everything to do with keeping people in the position that they were born into. I have a hard time thinking of many instances in 20th century British history in which the military was called upon to put down striking workers.  I can think of many times when governors called out the National Guard to put down strikes in US states.

American hegemony is far more benign that that which Britain imposed on the world.  And will likely be more so than that which any future hegemon imposes.

The Chinese have been able to stir up the type of ill-will and resentment that it took the United States several decades to accrue in Africa less than a decade.

I'm sorry to say this, but what the US has done in the past 50 years pales in comparison to what Europeans did when they were in charge.

And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg

by ManfromMiddletown (manfrommiddletown at lycos dot com) on Mon Jul 14th, 2008 at 06:56:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Was it better than Europe would have done if they'd been in charge for the last 50 years?

I'm sure you find it comforting to think that the US has been uniquely benign but the evidence for that seems scant.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Mon Jul 14th, 2008 at 07:02:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Ask yourself this.

People get upset about American hegemony.

Is the problem American hegemony?

Or American hegemony?

And honestly, yes I think that the US has done better than if Europe had been in charge, because any situation in which Europe had been in charge would have involved the perpetuation of colonialism.

Does the British record in Kenya or the French record in Algeria really give any reason to believe that European hegemony would have been any better than American hegemony?

And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg

by ManfromMiddletown (manfrommiddletown at lycos dot com) on Mon Jul 14th, 2008 at 07:17:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The problem is both hegemony in general and American hegemony in particular, since that's the one we've been suffering from.

My point is that you're excusing the horrors of US hegemony by comparing it to an imaginary continuation of European hegemony - though you could argue that, apart from the geographical centre being in Washington rather than London, Paris or Berlin, that the US hegemony was simply a continuation of the European one - it's been pretty much the same people in charge, after all.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Mon Jul 14th, 2008 at 07:31:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, it's pretty much the same people.

The thing that I'm disagreeing with is the idea that if any other nation where in the position that the US is now that they would behave any differently.  

Which means that the best way to deal with this isn't to make the specific case against the US, but the general case against the behavior in question.  

You shut down the conversation with a lot of the people who can have an impact on that behavior by making this about American hegemony instead of American hegemony.  It's counterproductive.

It's cliche but true. Hate the sin, not the sinner.

And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg

by ManfromMiddletown (manfrommiddletown at lycos dot com) on Mon Jul 14th, 2008 at 07:45:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Does the British record in Kenya or the French record in Algeria really give any reason to believe that European hegemony would have been any better than American hegemony?

Equally bad I would say. If a CIA backed army  is willing to overthrow a democratically elected government, if it votes the wrong way. Then go round shooting and torturing people who might exercise their freedoms in the future, how is that better than colonialism? its really just colonialism with added misdirection.

Life should consist in at least fifty percent pure waste of time, and the rest doing what you please.

by ceebs (bunchofwankers (at) gmail (dot) com) on Mon Jul 14th, 2008 at 07:33:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I think it's a pretty silly debate.  It's kind of like the big reparations lawsuit phase people went through back in the '90s.  Yes, I suppose some group might have been nastier to my ancestors than my ancestors were to some other group, but everybody was pretty awful, so does distinguishing by such small degrees really mean anything?

(Ironically, but expectedly, that nastier group was another group of my ancestors, so I'd wind up needing to sue myself in order to collect.)

WHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!

by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Mon Jul 14th, 2008 at 07:22:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Being uniquely benign isn't necessary when you set such a low standard as Europe in the 19th cent. Compared to 19th cent. European great powers, the Romans were a shining example of modernity and enlightenment.

Heck, well into the 20th cent. the Brits were doing things in India that would have landed a lot of their PMs in the Hague until they were old and grey and then some if they had been brown people. And let's not even start talking about Belgian Congo or French North Africa (and since I'm Danish, let me also mention the Danish slave trade, that continued well into the latter half of the 19th cent.).

Traditional great powers have never been nice, and I find it hard to believe they ever will be. Our challenge for the 21st cent. is to figure out how to make a non-traditional great power.

As an aside, am I the only one who finds it absurd to attempt to rank the scale of crimes where the dead are counted in millions? Doesn't one reach a point where attempts to figure out who was "the worst bad guy" becomes a meaningless exercise in finger-pointing?

- Jake

Ceterum censeo Chicago esse delendam

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Mon Jul 14th, 2008 at 07:25:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Traditional great powers have never been nice, and I find it hard to believe they ever will be. Our challenge for the 21st cent. is to figure out how to make a non-traditional great power.

Agree, which is why I think that bitching about hegemony is really pointless.

Hegemony brings order to an otherwise anarchic system.  Which means you get rules.

I like living in a society with law and order, because it means that I don't have to worry about someone stabbing me when I go for a walk. (... as much, I did get hauled out of bed by the police on my last birthday because there was a hostage situation at the neighbors and I had to evacuate)

It's much preferable to live in a world in which there are rules, and in order for there to be rules there has to be the power to enforce them.  It's important in this case that the rules apply to all, so that you have rule of law, not of men. (I'm certain that given the chance women are equally capable of genocide, etc...)

Now of course you can have order without freedom, like the security that you et in  an authoritarian state.

Or you can have order in which everyone has input into how the rules are made, but there's a basic agreement about what the basis rules are.

That's why I think that in the end there has to be an effort to coallesce around that set of values that can form the constitutional basis of a new world order.  

And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg

by ManfromMiddletown (manfrommiddletown at lycos dot com) on Mon Jul 14th, 2008 at 07:39:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Now of course you can have order without freedom, like the security that you et in  an authoritarian state.

Or under the hegemonies you've been talking about. But we shouldn't bitch, because at least there's order.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Mon Jul 14th, 2008 at 07:43:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]
As bad as the renditions and Guantanamo are.

Is it worse to live in a world in which a few hundred people are tortured, to death or otherwise?

Or one in which the lack of order means that there are major power wars which lead to the death of tens of millions?

What's tragic about the renditions isn't so much that they are evil, as that they are utterly fucking pointless. They serve no purpose.  They don't make the world safer, but they do erode the idea that there are rules that apply to everybody and which are not to be broken.

Which means that when the US (or for that matter any of the European states wrapped up in the whole rendition affair) goes to condemn Sudan for Dafur, the whole issue of renditions gets thrown back at them.  Same thing with China.  That the scale of the Guatanamo is a mere fraction of what you have in Darfur or China doesn't matter, because it's taken as an absolute principal, a law.

And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg

by ManfromMiddletown (manfrommiddletown at lycos dot com) on Mon Jul 14th, 2008 at 07:54:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The war in Iraq has already killed on the wrong side of a million people. Granted, that's one or two orders of magnitude less than WWI, but a million here and a million there...

- Jake

Ceterum censeo Chicago esse delendam

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Mon Jul 14th, 2008 at 08:16:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]
And the sanctions and bombing before killed about a million more, but those are always counted  as victims of Saddam.

that's one or two orders of magnitude less than WWI, but a million here and a million there...

but if you take into account the size of the populations involved, I'm sure its probably significant.

Life should consist in at least fifty percent pure waste of time, and the rest doing what you please.

by ceebs (bunchofwankers (at) gmail (dot) com) on Mon Jul 14th, 2008 at 08:22:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]
And how many were killed in the Congo in the conflict that lasted from the late 90s to the start of this decade?

If a US military strike against the government of the countries that intervened could have stopped the escalation of the killing, would it have been justified because it would have saved lives?

Or condemned as American aggression against poor African states?

And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg

by ManfromMiddletown (manfrommiddletown at lycos dot com) on Mon Jul 14th, 2008 at 08:24:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That's a very  large If.

Life should consist in at least fifty percent pure waste of time, and the rest doing what you please.
by ceebs (bunchofwankers (at) gmail (dot) com) on Mon Jul 14th, 2008 at 08:29:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]
If you want to promote democracy, you can start by yanking the rug out under the Saudi royal family. And start leaning on Mubarak and Olmert. And pull the CIA out of Colombia (along with whatever other goons you have running around there).

Claims that any military intervention is supposed to promote democracy and human rights are going to ring hollow - extremely hollow - if there's still so much lower-hanging fruit around in the democracy promotion department. It'd look much like shooting a burglar and claiming that you did it because you're "concerned about your safety" - when you haven't even bothered to install a lock on your door in the first place. Not credible.

- Jake

Ceterum censeo Chicago esse delendam

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Mon Jul 14th, 2008 at 08:47:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The notion that any large scale military intervention is to promote freedom and democracy for others is in itself delusional.  After all it wouldn't take much to depose that goon Mugabe, but no one is going to bother.  Nations go to war with other nations when their own perceived vital national interests are at stake.  The US is not going to put its own troops in harms way just to get rid of some tinpot dictator if there is nothing in it for them.  The problem for the US is that it has outsourced the definition of its "vital national interests" to a small coterie of corporate interests.

"It's a mystery to me - the game commences, For the usual fee - plus expenses, Confidential information - it's in my diary..."
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot dotty communists) on Mon Jul 14th, 2008 at 08:59:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Did the US intervention in Iraq stop the escalation of some killing spree? I don't get the comparison.

And I don't agree with the counterfactual either. A few air strikes here and there are not going to stop a few million people ready to kill each other with machetes and most foreign combatants in Congo came from neighbouring countries, on foot (so to speak).

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jul 16th, 2008 at 05:00:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]
As bad as the renditions and Guantanamo are.
Is it worse to live in a world in which a few hundred people are tortured, to death or otherwise?

Or one in which the lack of order means that there are major power wars which lead to the death of tens of millions?


Are those my only two choices? Seems like, in a slow motion manner, both are happening anyway.

The tragedy of the renditions is that they are evil and they are pointless and that they are being committed for years by a country founded on principles that explicitly don't allow such actions - not cooincidentally because some ancient monarchy was doing such things and 250 years ago we thought that it was time for the world to grow up...that the world is able to grow up.

I don't buy the mere fraction part either. Sure, what is going on in the camp of one island is perhaps 500 people, but there are a lot of places that the Red Cross has been kept out of, and my money is on the bet that says there is still a lot more that we don't know about. Not that this mitigates whatever specifics you are talking about in China or Darfur. Just that the whole 50, or even last 20 year, US involvement Iraq and Iran is millions of people dead. And like VietNam, which was also millions of people dead, you can't really put your finger on a real reason why.

Never underestimate their intelligence, always underestimate their knowledge.

Frank Delaney ~ Ireland

by siegestate (siegestate or beyondwarispeace.com) on Mon Jul 14th, 2008 at 09:03:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]
What's tragic about the renditions isn't so much that they are evil, as that they are utterly fucking pointless. They serve no purpose.  They don't make the world safer, but they do erode the idea that there are rules that apply to everybody and which are not to be broken.

No, what's tragic about fucking renditions is that individuals are being tortured, broken and killed. (Are you arguing that it's ok to be evil so long as you'll benefit from it? Is being evil to make the world "safer" - by which you seem to  mean make the US safer - alright?) That the US is publicly endorsing torture and a  gross disregard for both the law and basic human decency is a further collection of tragic acts of evil on top of the original one.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Mon Jul 14th, 2008 at 09:10:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Amen.

WHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!
by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Mon Jul 14th, 2008 at 09:12:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well said

No excuse  for torture, not ever, no matter the situation, no matter the number of lives it will supposedly save, its flat out wrong, 100% wrong in any and all circumstances.

Obamas first action should be the arrest of his predecessor and his henchmen, and if it turns out that they have presidential pardons that stop any legal action, then  get the ICC charter ratified and hand the mob over to the Hague

Life should consist in at least fifty percent pure waste of time, and the rest doing what you please.

by ceebs (bunchofwankers (at) gmail (dot) com) on Mon Jul 14th, 2008 at 09:25:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yup, and if you believe you need to torture in order to save those lives then you still go to jail for an extended period, even if on the off chance that it works: surely it's worth it. A noble sacrifice in the service of others that any true Jack-what's-his-name wannabe should be glad to make.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Mon Jul 14th, 2008 at 09:33:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Is it worse to live in a world in which a few hundred people are tortured, to death or otherwise?

Or one in which the lack of order means that there are major power wars which lead to the death of tens of millions?

Are you saying rendering or torturing a few hundred people is going to stop a hegemonic war on its tracks?

Are you saying that the actual rendering and torturing that took place was to prevent the death of tens of millions and not alongside the unleashing of a war that has killed millions and risks escalating to tens of millions if we're not careful, and in addition to the gutting of the international system which is now weakened to the point that if a war to kill tens of millions were imminent it could do nothing to prevent it?

The problem with "realists" is that they live in a Platonic universe of ticking bomb scenarios and world wars averted by targeted torture and assassination.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jul 16th, 2008 at 05:04:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The problem with "realists" is that they live in a Platonic universe of ticking bomb scenarios and world wars averted by targeted torture and assassination.

 Some background reading How anyone can say they are a realist and yet support the ticking bomb scenario makes my mind boggle.

Life should consist in at least fifty percent pure waste of time, and the rest doing what you please.

by ceebs (bunchofwankers (at) gmail (dot) com) on Wed Jul 16th, 2008 at 06:06:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Right now, it's American hegemony that's killing people - lots and lots of people. Hegemony is a more general problem.

It's not as if we don't bitch about the European contributions to the body count as well, but everyone always only complains about the insults to their own nation.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Mon Jul 14th, 2008 at 07:56:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You do realize that the average American on the street can do little to nothing about this.  After all, all the major candidates are basically in agreement carrying a big stick and bashing other nations with it.

Obama isn't going to take US forces out of Iraq, and to be honest the likely result of a US withdrawal in Iraq is an Iraqi genocide in which the Sunnis and Kurds are knocked off.  I don't think that we're talking about something on the order of the Holocaust, but matching Rwanda or Bosnia? Sure.

So if it's the body count that matters, which one is better?

If another 100,000 die because of the occupation, but 2 million will die in the event of a genocide in the event of American withdrawal, which is morally superior?

We can't change the past, we can change the future.

And in the future, I think that it's important that the world community be listened to when there's a push for war.  So that if the thing goes to shit it's everybody's fault, and not just placed on America's shoulders.

And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg

by ManfromMiddletown (manfrommiddletown at lycos dot com) on Mon Jul 14th, 2008 at 08:12:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]
ManfromMiddletown:
Obama isn't going to take US forces out of Iraq, and to be honest the likely result of a US withdrawal in Iraq is an Iraqi genocide in which the Sunnis and Kurds are knocked off.  I don't think that we're talking about something on the order of the Holocaust, but matching Rwanda or Bosnia? Sure.

My recipe for Iraq? Declare a firm date of pullout of all troops. Give this date with enough time for all of the power factions in Iraq to pre-negotiate their relationships after the end of the occupation. Apologize to the Iraqi's, say you are very, very sorry about the state of their country. Give the option to any Iraqi who wishes to immigrate to coalition-of-the-willing countries, in case the should feel they've had enough and don't want to stick around for the occupation aftermath and possible genocides. Those people leaving should be granted immediate permanent residence in the receiving country. That way, those that stay in Iraq to try to resolve the conflict amongst the different groups will at least have made the choice to do so.

Then leave. And let the chips fall where they may. And promise not to do it again.

by someone (s0me1smail(a)gmail(d)com) on Mon Jul 14th, 2008 at 09:17:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Which is basically what's going to happen.  The deadline on having the troops out, for now, is May 20, 2010.  Obama's not going to have much choice on staying or going anyway.  His op-ed in the NYT this morning suggests he's clearly, despite the best efforts of McCain and the AP to convince us otherwise, looking to get out.

The only issue will be hammering out the details of what to do with Iraqis who want to get out, too.

MfM's assumptions are a little silly here.  The idea that the Sunnis outside of Iraq are going to sit around while the Shi'ia slaughter the Iraqi Sunnis is ridiculous.

I'm also not a big believer that the Shi'ia are going to set about trying to kill all the Sunnis and Kurds the moment we turn our backs.  I don't follow how our soldiers would prevent this either.

I'm skeptical, too, as these excuses for staying are the excuses provided by the Very Serious People who supported the war and want to stay in order to prop up their imaginary honor.

WHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!

by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Mon Jul 14th, 2008 at 09:45:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Which is basically what's going to happen.

Except of course the part about letting iraqis emigrate to coalition countries. I do not have the numbers but recently it was reported that the swedish town of Södertälje has accepted more refugees from Iraq then the entire US. And I bet there are towns in Syria that is housing more refugees then Sweden in total.

by A swedish kind of death on Tue Jul 15th, 2008 at 10:12:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]
True, but that's a reflection of the current president not wanting to make it seem as though incredible numbers of Iraqis are fleeing to America for safety.  It'd kind of damage his whole "The surge is working" argument.  I think you'll find Obama more open to it (assuming, of course, that he wins).

WHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!
by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Tue Jul 15th, 2008 at 06:35:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Call me cynical, but I have a hard time imagining that. Not only would it set precedents that I think the US might rather want to not set, it would also be attacked - fiercely - by his domestic opposition. I don't think that anyone in Washington thinks a million or five Iraqis are worth the political capital required to treat them decently.

- Jake

Ceterum censeo Chicago esse delendam

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Wed Jul 16th, 2008 at 03:59:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]
And in the future, I think that it's important that the world community be listened to when there's a push for war.  So that if the thing goes to shit it's everybody's fault, and not just placed on America's shoulders.

No, excuse me, what's important is for America and its leaders to understand that we go to war in self-defense should it become absolutely necessary (and as the last resort), not to go looking for these God-damned ponies just because these neocon pieces of shit decides that our troops should be used to promote their magical thinking.

It's on America's shoulders, because those of us who opposed this stupid fucking war weren't fucking listened to.  The global community wasn't listened to, because the global community wasn't going to go in regardless of what fairy tale the psychos told it.  Whose shoulders should it be on?  The French?  The Germans?  They had the brains to stay out, so why the fuck would it be on their shoulders?

You're right, we can only change the future, but I, for one, am not done talking about the past, because I and others were right all along, and it's time the people who got it right were listened to in this country instead of the people all-too-willing to send other people's kids to die for nothing.

WHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!

by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Tue Jul 15th, 2008 at 08:57:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm afraid this isn't the way America, whose economic edifice pivots on projection of military power, works.

It's a militaristic society through and through, anyone who lives here and observes the absolute reverence of all things military by the vast majority of americans can see this. And that reverence permeates everything. We gaze in wide wonder at how the so-called 4th estate toed the line so easily in the run-up to the Iraq war, but really, it's this way with every war. Americans absolutely love their wars.

As long as they win them, they don't cost too much money and someone else's kids get killed.

"C'est un scandale !"

by redstar on Tue Jul 15th, 2008 at 03:10:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]
About body counts...

You can't just compare collections of people by size - people are people, not beans to be counted.

Example: is it better to kill a hostage taker and a hostage to free another hostage, or to let the hostage taker kill the hostages and then kill the hostage taker?

Will you take responsibility for the choice to kill a hostage? Will you pull the trigger? How will you face the family of the hostage you killed in order to reduce the hostage death count by half?

If you're going to get the rap either way from the family of the dead hostages, better to not have blood on your hands on top of that, to be honest.

You're welcome to scale the problem from 1:2 to any ratio of dead hostages you like.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jul 16th, 2008 at 05:18:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't think it's pointless to critique the ruling hegemons. Not because we can (necessarily) claim a moral high ground, but because we need to remind ourselves of the pitfalls of power that we'll want to avoid when we build a more perfect union. Unless, of course, our only ambition is to replace the American death squads currently running around in the third world with European death squads. (And, in a more political context, because we need to take the ever-present glorification of post-Reagan USA down a notch if we want to cure our body politic of neoliberalism.)

I just get a little irked whenever I see people claiming that Europe has special moral high ground and that if just Europe would have been in charge of the world we wouldn't have acted like assholes. Chances are that, given the opportunity, Europeans would be just as likely to throw a small third-world country against the wall and beat the snot out of it as Americans. Which is why a lot of our work in building a better EU will have to go towards making sure the EU never gets the opportunity to throw small third world countries up against the wall...

Soft power instead of hard power. It's not the only foreign policy question that matters, but it comes pretty close.

- Jake

Ceterum censeo Chicago esse delendam

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Mon Jul 14th, 2008 at 07:51:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Shouldn't the focus be on taking down the ideas that lead to the Iraq war, instead of assigning blame for how it happened?

As you point out its the ideas that matter, not the people who hold them.

And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg

by ManfromMiddletown (manfrommiddletown at lycos dot com) on Mon Jul 14th, 2008 at 08:18:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Shouldn't the focus be on taking down the ideas that lead to the Iraq war, instead of assigning blame for how it happened?

And how does one do that without holding the perpetrators accountable?  The people who hold these idiotic ideas do matter, and they need to be discredited every time the opportunity presents itself.

WHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!

by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Mon Jul 14th, 2008 at 08:28:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]
On the European side of the Pond, the idea that led to the Iraq war was mostly blind Atlanticism and cowardly collaboration with the current hegemonic power. Unfortunately, breaking that idea kinda requires making blind Atlanticism politically untenable, which requires a much less rosy image of the US in the general population.

The drive to place responsibility for the way Iraq blew up in our faces on the US is just as much about incriminating our domestic Quislings and making it harder for them to say "the international community" when in reality they mean "our sugar-daddy in Washington." That's more than a little rough on the Americans who are exposed to it. And it's going to feel mightily unfair to those Americans who explicitly voted against King George the Lesser. But if we don't drive the point home that the US is not, at the moment, a source of freedom and democracy, our Quislings can keep pissing European lives and political capital away. And that's simply not acceptable.

- Jake

Ceterum censeo Chicago esse delendam

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Mon Jul 14th, 2008 at 08:29:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Not to mention helping kill lots and lots of people.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Mon Jul 14th, 2008 at 08:31:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It is missing the point. Both European and US colonialism have been a disaster for some countries.

In a Panglossian way though, in context, that's not so surprising. What's made Euro-civilisation different is an explicit ideal of abstract equality and dignity. The ideal has been trampled on so many times it's ridiculous, but it's still there as a kind of final appeal to civilisation which at least some people believe in at least some of the time, and which progressives - bless their keyboards - would like to see more of.

Genocide, exploitation and empire seem to be the natural human state of things, and while it's easy to be horrified by colonialism, there are plenty of cultures which have had colonialism and slavery without feeling any obligation to be horrified at all.

We're not special because we're unusually civilised - in reality, we really aren't. But we are special because we have occasional, all-too-fleeting moments when we dream that we could be better. And that's almost unique in history.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Mon Jul 14th, 2008 at 07:46:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
But so does the US notion of civilisation. In no small part this is why such words as "freedom" had to be thoroughly debased in US discourse. Various versions of Maoism has also espoused similar ideals, at least officially.

One of the biggest diseases on the US body politic - right up there with neoliberal economics - is American Exceptionalism. If we want to make a more perfect union for Europe, we'll have to step on European Exceptionalism so hard it dies. Otherwise, give it a couple of decades and we'll be the ones cluelessly wondering why "they" hate us.

And as long as we have people like Tory Bliar saying that he's proud of the British Empire (yes, he has actually said that. Gag me), I don't think we should be shouting our mouths off too badly about how much better than the US we inherently are.

Our political culture is at the moment a lot more civilised than the political culture across the Pond, so we have a much better starting point for creating a non-traditional great power that doesn't behave like a petulant five-year-old with superpowers. But a large part of the reason that we have a better starting point than the US is precisely the fact that we have not been hegemons for the past fifty or so years.

And whether we'll succeed in turning our current advantage into more permanently civilised behaviour remains to be seen. So our bragging rights are somewhat limited at this point.

- Jake

Ceterum censeo Chicago esse delendam

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Mon Jul 14th, 2008 at 08:03:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I'd guess that TBG is including the US in Euro-cvilisation.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Mon Jul 14th, 2008 at 08:08:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Point taken.

- Jake

Ceterum censeo Chicago esse delendam

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Mon Jul 14th, 2008 at 08:12:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yep.

I know it's fashionable to get the guilt on. And it's not as if there isn't plenty to feel guilty about.

Even so - inherent dignity and inherent human rights are both unique concepts, and key cultural drivers.

Exceptionalism is SOP for empires. It's what empires do. But the idea that something better might be possible isn't quite so common - no matter how unlikely it's looking at the moment.

If there's a way to rehabilitate Euro-culture politically, it's to move that concept back to the centre and make it an anchor of integrity around which everything else revolves.

We've had so much to be cynical about politically for such a long time it's hard to imagine how that might be possible. But the alternative is likely to be worse, so it may not be such a bad thing to aim for.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Mon Jul 14th, 2008 at 08:15:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm no expert with empirical data, but I think that the EU countries have learned some of the hard lessons of colonialism and don't want to repeat them. Not that it is unanimous, but perhaps the French people (as an example) wouldn't allow what happened in Algeria again after the war. This population would have let it go. And my feeling is that this is true for majorities of the populations all over the continent.

So, perhaps I am wrong, or perhaps it is time to stop throwing that era into the argument as some mitigation for the US' actions. Sure, it has to be watched out for, and the lessons taught for future generations...just saying.

Never underestimate their intelligence, always underestimate their knowledge.

Frank Delaney ~ Ireland

by siegestate (siegestate or beyondwarispeace.com) on Mon Jul 14th, 2008 at 08:55:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Proposals like "Colonialism had some good sides" are being rehashed nowadays. Very annoying.

Auferre, trucidare, rapere, falsis nominibus imperium; atque, ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant.
by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Mon Jul 14th, 2008 at 10:28:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]
If we want to make a more perfect union for Europe, we'll have to step on European Exceptionalism so hard it dies.

Completely agree. And we can start by not copying the US vocabulary. "A more perfect Union"?

The plural of anecdote is bullshit.
by generic on Mon Jul 14th, 2008 at 01:09:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]
What is really sad about the manner in which American hegemony has developed is that the USA was born out of a mass fleeing from oppression and many of its founding ideals were built around the notion that America would not, like its European neighbours, become engaged in imperial entanglements.

Thus even today, many, perhaps most, Americans completely deny that America is engaged in empire building at all - despite the presence of US troops in more than 100 "sovereign" nations.  America has practiced a new form of neo-colonialism which involves indirect corporate hegemony and covert rather than overt military actions in many cases.  Even Iraq was to help Iraqis enjoy the fruits of democracy!

It is the indirect/covert/ideological model of US neo-colonialism which is particularly corrosive as it can seemingly co-exist side by side with all the laudable claims to virtue contained in the Declaration of Independence.  In some ways the old European model of colonialism which involved direct military/poltical rule was more obvious and more honest - and easier to oppose/resist.

"Global corporations" are almost beyond all governance.  Military contractors are not subject to the usual military disciplines.  And most American's would be genuinely appalled if they knew the full extent of what the CIA et al routinely engages in.

The sadness is not the the US is worse than (say) Nazi Germany or the Stalinist Soviet Union.  Of course it is not.  The sadness is that such noble ideals have become so debased - which is also why we have to be careful how the EU develops if it ever does become a "harder" world power.

"It's a mystery to me - the game commences, For the usual fee - plus expenses, Confidential information - it's in my diary..."

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot dotty communists) on Mon Jul 14th, 2008 at 08:27:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]
What is really sad about the manner in which American hegemony has developed is that the USA was born out of a mass fleeing from oppression and many of its founding ideals were built around the notion that America would not, like its European neighbours, become engaged in imperial entanglements.

Maybe, of maybe not.

Wikipedia: Revision and replacement of the Articles of Confederation

Rakove (1988) identifies several factors that explain the collapse of the Confederation. The lack of compulsory direct taxation power was objectionable to those wanting a strong centralized state or expecting to benefit from such power. It could not collect customs after the war because tariffs were vetoed by Rhode Island. Rakove concludes that their failure to implement national measures "stemmed not from a heady sense of independence but rather from the enormous difficulties that all the states encountered in collecting taxes, mustering men, and gathering supplies from a war-weary populace."[13] The second group of factors Rakove identified derived from the substantive nature of the problems the Continental Congress confronted after 1783, especially the inability to create a strong foreign policy. Finally, the Confederation's lack of coercive power reduced the likelihood for profit to be made by political means, thus potential rulers were uninspired to seek power.


When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Jul 17th, 2008 at 04:34:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]
tbg, kudos!
you have succinctly and elegantly summed up all my highest aspirations for the EU, and the world.

you should be writing inspirational speeches for some big cheese...

this whole debate is stellar, btw, raising the ET bar once again.

The person who says it cannot be done should not interrupt the person doing it. Chinese Proverb.

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Mon Jul 14th, 2008 at 11:11:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]
When you look at the US manufacturing sector, it has never done better, in terms of output and value of output (and these days, export volumes).

Where it has gone down is in the number of people it employs, and in its share of the overall GDP. Both of these are to some extent linked to the fact that tasks that used to be internalised (and counted as "industrial" jobs) have been externalised (outsourced) to companies counted in the service sector, even if fundamentally they do the same thing.

Finance makes sense only if it helps an underlying activity happen more effectively or makes it happen because it allows the requisite capital to be available at the right time and the right conditions (ideally cheaper). A decent part of finance does do that.

The problem is when finance becomes the driver, and making short term profits, including by playing with underlying cash-flows, predominates over other company goals (such as maintaining quality, keeping an innovation edge, thinking about the long term well being of the workers) - and worse, when such thinking begins to dominate societal habits.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Mon Jul 14th, 2008 at 05:05:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]
How much of that output is manufactured elsewhere but counted as domestic product?

When Apple sells me a laptop, the profit is added to the US balance sheet, but the laptop itself is manufactured in China.

US-only manufacturing seems to be limited to aerospace (creaky), automotive (largely at death's door), IT hardware (aggressively outsourced), and military (heavily subsidised).

Pharma/bio, agribusiness and chemical seem to be reasonably healthy, and there's a nascent green sector. But I don't think you can take the national summary statistics at face value - the overall picture may not be quite as healthy.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Mon Jul 14th, 2008 at 05:20:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]
How much of that output is manufactured elsewhere but counted as domestic product?

When Apple sells me a laptop, the profit is added to the US balance sheet, but the laptop itself is manufactured in China.

The bits produced in China are counted as China's in domestic product.  They'd be counted as American in national product.

Some of the other tech companies do produce here.  I think (could be wrong) Apple is actually a little odd as tech companies go, with all, or almost all, of its production in China.  Dell's got stuff in Appalachia.  Intel's got stuff in the Southwest.

Obviously that's simplifying things too much, since they're manufacturing computers in America with RAM from Taiwan, processors from Phoenix, etc.

And obviously the jobs in Cupertino doing the development are valuable ones.  There's a good contribution to GDP from that.

WHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!

by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Mon Jul 14th, 2008 at 06:15:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Drew J Jones:
I think (could be wrong) Apple is actually a little odd as tech companies go, with all, or almost all, of its production in China.

Apart from a couple of the major US manufacturers, its pretty much that the apples are coming from the same factories as the pcs nowadays, since the transfer over to Intel chips.

Life should consist in at least fifty percent pure waste of time, and the rest doing what you please.

by ceebs (bunchofwankers (at) gmail (dot) com) on Mon Jul 14th, 2008 at 07:06:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, yes, and that connects with my point about the components.  I just mean the "Throw all the shit in the tower and send it to the warehouse" phase.

Most importantly, the Reality Distortion Field is still American-made, so I think we're alright for now.

WHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!

by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Mon Jul 14th, 2008 at 07:30:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]
the Reality Distortion Field is still American-made

The importance of this is not to be underestimated!  That is how all of this financialization and hollowing out of the economy can be out in the open and yet have only a few actually see it.  IT IS CLOAKED IN PLAIN SIGHT, by, as it is otherwise know as, the "PR Tanks" and their paradigm--the source of the Reality Distortion Field.

If sanity be culturally normative, then by the norms of this culture I claim insanity.

by ARGeezer (argeezer a in a circle yahoo dot com) on Tue Jul 15th, 2008 at 12:39:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Erm, no, you're thinking of the right-wing noise machine.  The Reality Distortion Field is a different thing:

In essence, RDF is the idea that Steve Jobs is able to convince people to believe almost anything with a mix of charm, charisma, bluster, exaggeration, and marketing. RDF is said to distort an audience's sense of proportion or scale. Small advances are applauded as breakthroughs. Interesting developments become turning points, or huge leaps forward. Those who use the term RDF contend that it is not an example of outright deception but more a case warping the powers of judgment. The term "audience" may refer to an individual whose attitudes Steve is intending to affect.

Often the term is used as a derogatory remark to criticize Apple's products and the effect they have on the space-time continuum.



WHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!
by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Tue Jul 15th, 2008 at 06:58:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Ok,ok.  Not being Apple fan since the Apple II, etc....  But it is a great name and better describes what the RW PR Tanks do than the term "Noise Machine," even though the RW "Noise Machine" is able to achieve very impressive Sound Pressure Levels.  

If sanity be culturally normative, then by the norms of this culture I claim insanity.
by ARGeezer (argeezer a in a circle yahoo dot com) on Tue Jul 15th, 2008 at 08:09:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]
One of the things that really gets me is this belief that simple currency arbitrage is sufficient to provoke an immediate economic stimulus that will result in the recovery and expansion of the manufacturing sector.

So now that the dollar is falling, US firms are supposed to be able to take the price reduction and turn it around and sell in the European market.

And let's take the example of something like small engine production.  Engines are heavy, and expensive to ship.  

There used to be an entire industrial sector that dealt with the production of these types of products.

But now any firm wishing to take advantage of currency arbitrage is hampered, because the minor advantage of labor and other inputs being less expensive is overcome by the fact that you have to call into existence a whole slew of industrial capacity that was wiped out of existence when all the factories where shipped overseas.

Industrial productivity that took decades to develop was destroyed in a little more than a decade.

And an American firm wanting to build a new engine factory to replace imports from the European Union faces high capital costs in the form of not only making the factory itself, but the added cost of importing the machine tools needed to produce the machines that make engines.  It's difficult to just go out on the street and find someone with the experience needed to do this kind of work.

Economists (of the American pundit variety) are often under the impression that there is little in the way of human capital found in the modern American factory.

They really think that you can take a guy off the street, and put them to work making precision machinery.  American companies have tried to do this in Mexico.  I have relatives who are auto engineers, and when the company decided to outsource a portion of US production to Mexico, the went from  1/100 defect rate, to a 1 in 5 defect rate.  The literally had vehicles come off the line that simply wouldn't run, and were forced to have engineers go through and figure out where the problem was before they could sell the vehicle.

There is a high degree of skill involved in labor in the manufacturing sector, and arguably the advantages of skilled labor overcome the low cost of cheap labor.

Much of that has been destroyed.

I would not be the least bit surprised if a closer examination of the manufacturing figures for the US showed that if you take final assembly out of the picture that what you see is a lot worse.

Its one thing for a billion dollars of economic activity to represent the ability to make the engine, the transmission, and all the other inputs that go into a car, and then assemble them.  Then for that same number to represent a much larger number of final assembled vehicles, but only being able to occur with imports of the various inputs.  In the first case its much easier to retool to meet rapid changes in the market.  In the second, not so much.

And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg

by ManfromMiddletown (manfrommiddletown at lycos dot com) on Mon Jul 14th, 2008 at 06:43:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]
This is a question of "industrial base" which is largely neglected by mainstream economists. In order to do certain things, you need certain other production around you...
by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Mon Jul 14th, 2008 at 08:01:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Economists seem to think that a lemonade stall is a good model for an industrial firm.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Jul 17th, 2008 at 04:40:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Display:
Login
. Make a new account
. Reset password
Recommended Diaries
The Purpose of Education
by rdf - Nov 20
27 comments

In Defense of the Electoral College
by danps - Nov 22
14 comments

LQD: NATO as 'convenient threat' for Russia
by marco - Nov 21
34 comments

Computational simulations in science
by tiagoantao - Nov 20
20 comments

So I met Bill McKibben
by SacredCowTipper - Nov 20
4 comments

Dershowitz boasts he kept Carter off DNC podium
by shergald - Nov 19
10 comments

First Snow 2008/9!
by DoDo - Nov 22
10 comments

jitter noise rumble
by emilmoller - Nov 19
18 comments

Debates
Campaigns
Occasional Series