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The USSR failed because it was non-democratic, not because it was centrally planned.

Capitalism (at least the utopian pure type) is non-democratic. The market is supposed to replace the ability to vote. Perhaps this might work in a perfect world, but what we have seen over the past 300 years is that the capitalists subvert the democratic political institutions thought their use of money to buy politicians.

So what we have in practice is industrial policy being made non-democratically, the same as in the USSR. It is just taking a bit longer for the US (and EU) to collapse, that's all.

Discuss...

Policies not Politics
---- Daily Landscape

by rdf (robert.feinman@gmail.com) on Wed Jul 16th, 2008 at 12:32:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That's part of it, it very definitely could have been more democratic, which is where Gorbatchev was headed anyway.

But the ultimate reason it collapsed, when it did, was because it was forced in the 2nd cold war to spend far more on guns, to the detriment of butter, than it could afford, because let's face it, the economic might of the ussr was no match for that of the us (and this not being the fault of economic system - remember the development gap already was there at the time of the overthrow of the tsar, and then it's a fact that Russia was far more impacts, economic, demographically, by a certain war in the late '30's and early '40's).

This over emphasis on keeping up with the us in the arms race created all sorts of economic distortions and ultimately led to the conditions which resulted in the (not entirely inevitably imo) collapse. But then, the militarism was abandoned, and this is a good thing, and now, the us is the last country to be fully militarised.

The collapse will be because of that. Which is why the eu will not.

"C'est un scandale !"

by redstar on Wed Jul 16th, 2008 at 12:55:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You might find this interesting. The author doesn't buy into the "militarism caused the USSR to implode" theme so much. He has a book about it.

http://www.energybulletin.net/node/23259

http://www.amazon.com/Reinventing-Collapse-Example-American-Prospects/dp/0865716064

Policies not Politics
---- Daily Landscape

by rdf (robert.feinman@gmail.com) on Wed Jul 16th, 2008 at 01:18:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I love Orlov's stuff, quite entertaining, though if you look at slide 5, I'm not sure he doesn't by the fact that militarism did the SU in...

"C'est un scandale !"
by redstar on Wed Jul 16th, 2008 at 01:27:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Ok, this is officially a phenomenon in search of a name:  

The routine act of linking to Dmitry Orlov's "Closing the Collapse Gap" slideshow on ET when the subject of the fall of the USSR arises.  

[Dmitry Orlov's Collapse Gap TechnologyTM]

Come, my friends, 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world.

by poemless on Wed Jul 16th, 2008 at 01:48:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]
a case of "Orlov's dog"?

(as in a reflexive response, that is)

The difference between theory and practise in practise ...

by DeAnander (de_at_daclarke_dot_org) on Thu Jul 17th, 2008 at 03:43:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Brilliant.  

Nice to "see" you here!

Come, my friends, 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world.

by poemless on Thu Jul 17th, 2008 at 04:00:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, the military-industrial complex most probably played a role. But I think that one thing that is frequently overlooked in popular discussions of the collapse of the Soviet system is the surveillance-industrial sector. You can't employ a full 10 % of your population to do nothing but watch over the other 90 % and make sure they don't do anything too dissenting. Even quite apart from the chilling effect it has on society in general, the sheer up-front cost of running such a system must have been a huge drain on the economy of those countries.

- Jake

Ceterum censeo Chicago esse delendam

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Wed Jul 16th, 2008 at 01:48:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I suggest you do a calculation to see what amount of the US economy is currently devoted to fear mongering and security theater.

For example, every office building in NYC now has one or more guards, a CCTV system and who knows what else to monitor those going in and out.

When I worked in Manhattan you walked into the building, looked up your party on the wall listing and took the elevator. Nothing untoward happened.

Then there are all the concrete bunkers placed in front of building to prevent enemy tanks (I guess) from crashing through the front door - how much do they cost?

How about the armed soldiers in the train stations and the cops doing random bag checks of law abiding citizens taking the subway. Who is paying their salaries? (Oh, I forgot, we are.)

Shall I go on: Homeland Security, 15 spy agencies (that we know of), Total Information Awareness, the "green zone" at how many billions.

Police states are inefficient as you indicate, but not just because of the useless labor being expended (exactly what do hedge fund managers contribute to productivity), but because a cowed populace is unproductive and lacks entrepreneurial spirit.

Frightened leaders make for a frightened populace and there are none more scared than those who have been demolishing the US constitution.

Policies not Politics
---- Daily Landscape

by rdf (robert.feinman@gmail.com) on Wed Jul 16th, 2008 at 03:11:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Police states are inefficient as you indicate, but not just because of the useless labor being expended (exactly what do hedge fund managers contribute to productivity), but because a cowed populace is unproductive and lacks entrepreneurial spirit.

Uh, China.

The USSR wasn't helped by a complete lack of competitive industries outside of its military hardware, leading to an over-reliance on commodity exports and their (then) tendency to fluctuate wildly in value.

Redstar recently claimed that the US also lacks competitive industries outside of the military, although he's at least half wrong (it along with the vampiric financial sector does create a massive talent drain from the point of view of productive industries).

you are the media you consume.

by MillMan (millguy at gmail) on Thu Jul 17th, 2008 at 04:21:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Not exactly. I claimed that the US lacked competitive industries outside of military applications (not jusst hardware) and intellectual property which is prone to pirating and therefore quite dependant upon the sorts of multilateral cooperation the US is very poor at.

"C'est un scandale !"
by redstar on Thu Jul 17th, 2008 at 10:23:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The USSR's policies prevented them from implementing 1960's / 1970's technology - needing three signatures to use a copy machine, for example. Most of the world, outside of the poorest nations, have navigated their way to acceptance of all technology on offer to the current day, but are currently teetering on the edge as the internet is a natural enemy of any organized government and our entrenched scarcity based industries. I say "teetering" because it is trivial to take down the internet or control it centrally but at the same time is integral to our economies in its current open form.

you are the media you consume.

by MillMan (millguy at gmail) on Thu Jul 17th, 2008 at 04:30:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The USSR collapsed for a plethora of reasons.  Picking one and elevating it to a Platonic The Cause is, IMHO, forecloses deep analysis and the insight such offers.

One cause was: military adventures are ruinously expensive.

One cause was: They pretend to pay us and we pretend to work.

One cause was: Top/Down command structures mandating and enforcing rotten decisions.

and there were others.

Needless to say, these same causes are prevalent in the US, today.


A doo run-run-run, a doo run-run

by ATinNM on Wed Jul 16th, 2008 at 02:25:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
H'mmm.

One cause of Inept Communication is the communicator's inability to use proper English Grammar.

A doo run-run-run, a doo run-run

by ATinNM on Wed Jul 16th, 2008 at 02:27:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Aaah thowght as 'ow yer wuz doin' alreet ;-)

(One of the few sentences in the English language that allow one to give a different regional accent inflection to each word)

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Wed Jul 16th, 2008 at 05:33:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

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