And now that the West has Karadzic | 68 comments (68 topical, editorial, 0 hidden)

Re: 1990 (none / 0)

It was ALL PLANNED way way before.

by vladimir on Fri Jul 25th, 2008 at 04:38:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 1990 (none / 1)

When, Why, and by who?

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Fri Jul 25th, 2008 at 04:51:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 1990 (none / 0)

You couldn't possibly be insinuating that Germany had nothing to do with the breakup of Yugoslavia. Could you?

by vladimir on Fri Jul 25th, 2008 at 05:51:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 1990 (none / 1)

So you are saying that the Schröder government and Clinton executed Kohl's plans?

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Fri Jul 25th, 2008 at 05:53:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 1990 (4.00 / 2)

I'm saying that Germany haad a significant role in the violent breakup of Yugoslavia. Through financing, arming and training KLA terrorists and Croatian nationalists. It's well documented. It's a fact. Period.

by vladimir on Fri Jul 25th, 2008 at 05:56:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 1990 (none / 0)

That may well be, but insufficient to prove "it was all planned in advance". It's separate elements may have been planned in advance, but I don't have the impression of a particularly prescient operation.

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Fri Jul 25th, 2008 at 06:00:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 1990 (none / 1)

Um, the Iraq adventure was also "planned in advance" with no "prescience" whatsoever.

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Jul 26th, 2008 at 03:16:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 1990 (none / 0)

All the same, would you say "It was ALL PLANNED way way before" even for the Iraq War?

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Sat Jul 26th, 2008 at 03:25:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 1990 (4.00 / 3)

No, but if you said "the US establishment has wanted/planned to destroy Iraq for 20 years" it would be hard to argue the point.

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Jul 26th, 2008 at 03:28:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 1990 (4.00 / 2)

As a corollary, it is not entirely clear to me what and why the German establishment wanted in Yugoslavia. If it wasn't just the coincidental succession of a pro-Catholic-countries Christian Democrat mindset and opportunistic take-us-seriously center-left Atlanticism (with some successful 'taming' of the Young Wild One by Albright).

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Sat Jul 26th, 2008 at 04:08:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 1990 (none / 1)

what was the payoff for germany to do this?

The power of knowledge is in mortal combat with the knowledge of power. It really is that simple... That's the Edenic apple we are all munching on.

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Sun Jul 27th, 2008 at 03:01:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 1990 (none / 0)

political influence
economic influence and financial gain

by vladimir on Sun Jul 27th, 2008 at 04:27:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 1990 (none / 1)

No I'm saying if you know it was planned, who planned it, when did they plan it and what did they hope to get out of it?

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Fri Jul 25th, 2008 at 07:03:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 1990 (4.00 / 2)

I don't know if and when it was planed but it looks only logical. After the fall of USSR the new world order started to take place. As we all know all other Eastern Europeans were now put gently in NATO's lap. It was expected from Yugoslavia too. But there was a problem with Milosevic. It still is a puzzle for me what was it that Milosevic expected to make in lousy situation we were in. There was no Russia (it was on its knees with Yelcin on his drunken back) and he even wrongly supported Yelcin's enemies. So nothing to expect from Russia and he was still "pocking Empire in its eye" systematically. Man was a disaster for unfortunate Serbia. It's only natural that westerners did what they did...armed and financed rebellion against Milosevic. Empire (with western vassals) always did that around the globe when ever they had a problem with "dictators" that wouldn't surrender to it's "policy". They are doing it as we speak. The thing is because it was a European matter Europeans were deeply involved in it. Especially Germany and especially in Croatia. Who do you think "privatized" (bought) everything valuable in Croatia? Talking about reward...But I don't think that ex YU was that much interesting as a market at the time...it was geo-strategically issue. Who's military bases will be on the ground. And we now know who they are. What do you think ex YU would look like now if Milosevic choose to give a free ride to Empire (NATO)?

by vbo on Fri Jul 25th, 2008 at 10:27:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 1990 (4.00 / 2)

Actually, according to some counter-intelligence sources in YU at the time, Milosevic offered the US entry into NATO as early as 1990. This offer was refused.

Political theories as to who planned it, how and why are abundant. Books have been written on the issue and it has also been debated on ET on a number of occasions.

No, it clearly wasn't a "smooth operation" and numerous contingency plans were certainly worked out and implemented as the play unfolded. But to anyone who closely follows the YU wars of "independence" it is more than clear that Germany, the Vatican and later the United States were heavily involved - not as peace makers but as self-serving antagonists.

Once this belligerent outside intervention (that started in the 80's) is established, the question that springs to mind is: was the Bosnian Serb leadership the internal aggressor or the international victim? The same question is pertinent for Slobodan Milosevic.

by vladimir on Sat Jul 26th, 2008 at 02:00:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 1990 (none / 1)

"Actually, according to some counter-intelligence sources in YU at the time, Milosevic offered the US entry into NATO as early as 1990. This offer was refused."
----------
If this is true then something really unacceptable for Empire was attached to it...
Looks like many of western politicians of that time cashed their activity but I still can't believe that it all was about private interest...but who knows...
What do you think was the reason for this refusal (if it happened) and those western plans (if they existed)???

by vbo on Sat Jul 26th, 2008 at 03:42:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 1990 (none / 1)

Surely it must have been. Joschka Fischer was nowhere near the government back then.

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Fri Jul 25th, 2008 at 05:30:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 1990 (none / 1)

You're right. I confused Fischer's role in Kosovo and Hans-Dietrich Genscher's in Bosnia.

by vladimir on Fri Jul 25th, 2008 at 05:50:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

And now that the West has Karadzic | 68 comments (68 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)

Top Diaries

A short note on extreme flooding (wonkish)

Catholic Bishops fighting losing battle in Ireland

A shift of sexual mores

Tour of the German offshore wind sector

Record flood on the Danube

Utopian Ideas - Digital Infrastructure

Histories of Neoliberalism?

Woolwich killing: responses

Recent Diaries

Catholic Bishops fighting losing battle in Ireland

A short note on extreme flooding (wonkish)

A shift of sexual mores

Tuesday Open Thread

Utopian Ideas - Digital Infrastructure

Tour of the German offshore wind sector

Record flood on the Danube

Histories of Neoliberalism?

No Desertec for Europe

The metro revolution

Woolwich killing: responses

Methane Cell Phone Sniffers

What price, Irish recovery?

How the "riots" in Stockholm started

One lone paper?

Fiscal and Organizational Capacity of States and Sovereignty

Austrians finally discover hyperinflation - in Diablo III

Rail News Blogging #25

Pentecost steam

Standing on the Shoulders of Giants - Europe and the Mongol...

Occasional Series