European Tribune

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Appears both our systems could stand a little tweaking. I like the idea of a judiciary with investigative powers, but there should be a way to eliminate undue executive and legislative meddling.

I can swear there ain't no heaven but I pray there ain't no hell. _ Blood Sweat & Tears
by Gringo (stargazing camel at aoldotcom) on Mon Jul 7th, 2008 at 10:24:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]
OTOH, we wouldn't want to create a "unitary judiciary" either. Just because they are - presently - the only reasonably non-insane branch of our respective governments (and even that I'm getting a bit unsure about with the recent Vaxholm and Viking Line rulings from the European Court) does not imply that they will stay that way. Especially not if they are given unchecked power.

However, how about giving the judiciary its own independent investigative arms and a rather vigorous constitutional mandate, but limiting the jurisdiction of their investigative branches to the behaviour of the legislative and executive branches? So that when a judiciary investigator uncovers a "civilian" crime, they are to hand it over to the "civilian" police, and conversely, when the "civilian" police uncovers evidence of abuses of power, corruption or unconstitutional behaviour, they are to hand it over to the judiciary enforcement agency.

I could see several advantages to this: First, it would establish a much-needed formal split between the police and politicians and the people investigating the police and politicians of criminal activity. Second, because its jurisdiction is limited to investigating crimes committed by the police, politicians (past or present) and a select few other branches of society carefully stipulated in the constitution, it could be given real powers and a tight insulation from political pressure without risking jackboots in the streets.

Another thing that might be worth considering would be to separate the investigation of crimes from the use of force. I.e. when an investigator has prepared a case, he hands it over to a judge who can authorise search or seizure against the suspect. The judge then hands the case to the "enforcement" branch - which is wholly separate from the investigating and judiciary authorities - for execution. I've read somewhere that the German Verfassungsschutz operates along these lines. The way I heard it, it works that way because the BRD - for obvious historical reasons - didn't want to have a secret police that had the power to break into people's homes and drag them off to a basement somewhere.

- Jake

Ceterum censeo Chicago esse delendam

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Wed Jul 9th, 2008 at 03:15:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]
There are many safeguards within the Italian judiciary. An investigative judge must argue his case before a preliminary judge to have authorizations, such as wiretaps, to pursue the case. Investigations have time limits set that may be extended only through a ruling of justifiable cause.

There are of course political accusations that the preliminary judge and the investigative judge may collude as a team, but that hardly holds water.

We all welcome checks and balance in our respective systems and the Italian system definitely has bettered the past fifteen years in respect to a defendant's rights. This however is no where perfect since a chimera has been created by introducing instruments and forms typical of the accusatory system while the Italian system remains inquisitorial. The introduction of "plea bargaining" in the nineties undermines the philosophy of inquisitorial law and has caused unresovable paradoxes.

But it's one thing to actually reform the judiciary in collaboration with all forces rather than seek to destroy the judiciary by creating a two-tiered system in which the elite are more equal than we before the law.  

by de Gondi (publiobestia aaaatttthotmaildaughtusual) on Wed Jul 9th, 2008 at 04:49:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Your solution seems to have merit.

I once worked for a federal investigative agency with limited jurisdiction/responsibilities, but it also  had powers of enforcement.  There was, however, strong sentiment within the agency leadership for many years against using any of the enforcement powers other than purely investigative ones such as those involving search and seizure (which rarely involved physical force BTW. The power to arrest was available but that usually necessitated the need to carry a firearm, so the leadership stayed away from both.  This approach worked fine given the environment of the day and the availability of other law enforcement organizations that were willing to exercise the "muscle" when more forceful actions were required.  In truth, the lack of "muscle" never cost us a conviction.  As a youngster, I failed to appreciate the wisdom of agency policy, but as I matured it became evident.  In later years when the older, wiser leaders had departed and everyone strapped on guns and began making arrests, I came to loath the job with its different approach toward fact finding.

I can swear there ain't no heaven but I pray there ain't no hell. _ Blood Sweat & Tears

by Gringo (stargazing camel at aoldotcom) on Wed Jul 9th, 2008 at 03:36:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]
What the Italian right wing is attempting to do with their bills is to give the police discretionary power in investigations- which is a clear breach of the constitution. It would be the police that determine what crimes to pursue and exercise an anti-constitutional "right" to inform the judiciary according to "their" criteria- or whoever determines that "scale of crime values" for them. At present the police forces of any arm are obliged to immediately call in an investigative judge who directs the investigation.

You can imagine what sort of abuse the Berlusconi scheme will cause.

by de Gondi (publiobestia aaaatttthotmaildaughtusual) on Wed Jul 9th, 2008 at 05:10:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Republican virtue can be considered in relation to the people and in relation to the government; it is necessary in both. When only the government lacks virtue, there remains a resource in the people's virtue; but when the people itself is corrupted, liberty is already lost. - Robespierre

Ceterum censeo Chicago esse delendam
by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Wed Jul 9th, 2008 at 03:19:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]

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