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Perfect.  Exactly.  An antisocial system based on a failed, but endlessly touted, economic system.  The dirty tail of the dog.

I don´t want to give up on naming names for legal responsibility of this global disaster, right down to the local level, but how do we start to turn the touting around, so that more people will demand ´justice´?  You are spreading reality as fast as you can, but how do we form our own ´navy´?

I´m drawing a frustrating blank.

Our knowledge has surpassed our wisdom. -Charu Saxena.

by metavision on Sun Jul 6th, 2008 at 12:28:52 PM EST
There are NO short term solutions: the two longest lasting forces of change in society are the quality of teachers and the quality of those who decide upon justice according to the 'law'- both of which (the law and education)  change themselves over generations, not quarters of years.

That does not necessarily mean that they should be the highest paid professions, but they should be the best supported organizations, in resources, independence and the facility of moral debate.

It's never going to happen. of course.

The fundamental paradox of society is that it contains individuals with a finite life, but is itself (seen from the individual point of view) infinite.  Two asynchronous cycles that rarely interesect in their rhythms.

Societies as cultures, are, of course, not infinite. Civilizations build up and collapse. We may be seeing the collapse of 'ours' now.

But those two factors - education and the law - are the two essentials to the continued evolution of any society. Even if, in the end, they become worthless. History is jam-packed with the imposition of alien cultures upon the losers of empire expansion. The invasion of Southern Europe by the Moors was no different, really, to the arrival of Martians.

But what the Moors (or any cultural invaders) bring/brought was a paradigm shift in what education and the law are about.

I'm all for it ;-)

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Sun Jul 6th, 2008 at 01:10:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It's never going to happen. of course.
...
History is jam-packed with the imposition of alien cultures upon the losers of empire expansion.
...
But what the Moors (or any cultural invaders) bring/brought was a paradigm shift in what education and the law are about.

As I read the first line (a spasm of apathy perhaps), I thought, "He doesn't believe this."

Then the twist of the 'imposition upon the losers' line reminded me of changes upon the victors as well, though this is not always so clear. I can't say that we have had any influence on the Bushites, though they have been somewhat beaten down.

But the enthusiastic remark after the final line concerning the paradigm shift...that's the heartening melody of hope that I expected from you.

That there are schools at all after the last 40 years is actually amazing. I think Jerome is wrong by saying this cycle is 30 years old. I mark it from the election of Reagan in California, which was devastating for public institutions and commons in general and education in particular and was a lab for the terror that the corporate socialists brought to the national scene later.

They came at the time that education was getting revamped toward more importance, and they were able to squelch that in America. But now that they are losing influence, I think education will be one of the first areas to re-seed and flower.

Never underestimate their intelligence, always underestimate their knowledge.

Frank Delaney ~ Ireland

by siegestate (siegestate or beyondwarispeace.com) on Sun Jul 6th, 2008 at 01:59:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]
There are good reasons imo to trace the 'changes to the victors' back to WWII.  The logistic-based transmutation of American business and its management, starting in the Fifties, can be traced directly back to WWII problem-solving.

The other side of that coin was the European experience: "war is terrible, look at all these dead civilians - our neighbours".

The slow bifurcation of two essentially similarly-based cultures, is the theme of the last 80 years - let alone 30.

And, as you say, it is the impositions of 'victory' upon the winners, as much as the losers, that drive social change. (or maybe I am going too far with that thought?)

Think about that capitalist notion of slavery. A cheap energy resource for WASP expansion in the 18th C onwards. An historical  business decision that still echoes loudly  in North American culture - and unlikely to quiesce any time soon.

This is what has occupied my thinking in recent months: the asynchronous time cycles of different world-views. The quartal view, the career view, the 'when will I die' view', the 'when will christianity die' view etc etc.

We've never really had to think cosmically before, apart from a few hard to read philosophers. Education has to be that broad imo.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Sun Jul 6th, 2008 at 02:37:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Think about that capitalist notion of slavery. A cheap energy resource for WASP expansion in the 18th C onwards.

Not to mention Latino expansion from the sixteenth century onwards. The Brits actually were the first major imperialist power to abandon slavery. The growth of the European (ex) colonies was primarily driven by poor European settlers be that in English, Spanish, or Porgtugese speaking areas. It turned out that for modern capitalism, the legal and economic strictures of a market economy are far more efficient at generating wealth for the elites than chattel slavery. Those areas that had been particularly dependent on the early modern system of slave labour tended to fall behind (US South, Caribbean, northern Brazil). The same was largely true in Europe as well with a pretty good correlation between the persistence of serfdom and relative poverty and economic underdevelopment.

by MarekNYC on Sun Jul 6th, 2008 at 03:08:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Good insight

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Sun Jul 6th, 2008 at 03:28:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Oh, I see.  And, how do we form our 'navy', captain?

Our knowledge has surpassed our wisdom. -Charu Saxena.
by metavision on Sun Jul 6th, 2008 at 03:42:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm from the forecastle part of the ship. All I know is ropes. You'll have to ask the admirals ;-)

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Sun Jul 6th, 2008 at 05:09:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

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