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by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu Aug 28th, 2008 at 04:15:00 PM EST
OK. About West media (quoted here extensively) again...

German weekly in propaganda row over Ossetia conflict
Europe's largest news magazine has been accused of propaganda by one of its own staff, who says it refused to publish pictures showing the devastation left by the Georgian military in South Ossetia. The photographer believes that the liberal German weekly Spiegel made a political decision to ignore the images as part of a pro-American stance on the conflict.

Pavel Kassin has been working for the weekly since 1990 and has never before had any problems getting his photographs published.

Last week, he and his German colleague Uwe Klussman, employed by Spiegel's Moscow bureau, were sent to South Ossetia to report on the aftermath of the war.

On his return, Pavel sent 29 pictures to the magazine's Hamburg HQ - but was shocked to find that none of them appeared in the latest issue released on Monday.

Kassin was so angry he gave an interview to the Russian daily Izvestia.

"Could it be that the most liberal, democratic and independent magazine has gone down the road of ideological one-sided propaganda?" he said. "In my view this is one of the rare cases when Spiegel has taken a pro-American stance."

In the last three issues Spiegel has given extensive coverage to the war in the Caucasus, but only a few articles have dealt with the situation in South Ossetia.

The rest have shown Georgia as a `martyr' suffering from `Russian aggression'. Most images featured ruined houses in the Georgian town of Gori and crushed military ships in the port of Poti.

Meanwhile, the South Ossetian capital Tskhinval, which suffered 12 hours of bombing by the Georgian military, is shown like a city living an ordinary life.

Most photographs were by correspondents of the world's leading news agencies. The weekly has also used several pictures by Russian photographers from Reuters and AP.

This year Spiegel has seen changes in its top management. Its long-time editor-in-chief Stefan Aust was replaced by two new chief editors.


by vbo on Thu Aug 28th, 2008 at 09:05:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]
by vbo on Thu Aug 28th, 2008 at 09:06:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It's one of those issues where you wouldn't be surprised if such a thing happened, but you'd be disappointed if it did.

Even the BBC hitched rides with the russians to see what was happening in S Ossetia. They seemed to get good co-operation from the russians too. That said I can't deny there was a pro-georgian bias in the reporting, so stuff from the russian side was downplayed as georgia got its media act together.

What has been fascinating to me is the changes in the narrative in diverse media. The BBC is following the Government/white House line pretty strongly now. I was surprised when Medvedev gave them an interview cos that's just Obama going on Fox.

But the print media, more specifically the Guardian and the independent have been all over the place. Starting off pro-Georgia and then gradually realising they got conned.

the Guardian is now very hostile to the Ukraine joining in and has criticised the Polish missile agreements. But when they go after Milliband's exhibitionism I don't know if that's tied to a rational internationalist stance or merely anti-milliband propaganda coming from Gordon Brown trying to discredit a rival.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Fri Aug 29th, 2008 at 05:38:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]
http://exiledonline.com/

See, while America's auto sales have gone into a nosedive, Russia just surpassed Germany to become the largest automobile market in Europe this year. Russians bought as many cars in the first six months of 2008 as they did in the entire last year, 1.65 million to be exact. The luxury category has posted the biggest growth, adding hundreds of thousands of uber-expesive automobiles to Russia's decrepit roads.  
by vbo on Thu Aug 28th, 2008 at 09:48:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Is there a special Mercedes version, perhaps with larger diameter tires and a higher suspension, sold in Russia? In Africa in the 1970s there were lots of Peugeot and Mercedes cars set up for poor road conditions...
by asdf on Thu Aug 28th, 2008 at 10:59:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I imagine the VW Tuareg and Porche Cayenne might fit the bill.

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Fri Aug 29th, 2008 at 05:40:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]
... Germans send their gas money to Russia, the Russian upper class that gets the money buys their luxury cars. And so more money trickles upwards.

Nothing against the Gazprom, BMW, and Mercedes workers, but this is a poor model of economic development for both countries.

by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Fri Aug 29th, 2008 at 07:34:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]
German Detente Supporter Bahr Says Cooperate With Russia | Europe | Deutsche Welle | 28.08.2008
The West should be seeking to improve cooperation with Russia rather than getting agitated about Moscow's recognition of Abkhazia and South Ossetia, according to veteran Social Democratic politician Egon Bahr.

Bahr was Deputy Minister of the Chancellery under the then German Chancellor Willy Brandt and is acknowledged as playing a major role in Brandt's "Ostpolitik," which sought to normalize relations with Eastern European nations by rapprochement. DW-WORLD.DE spoke to Bahr about how the West should respond to Moscow in the wake of recent events in Georgia. 

 

DW-WORLD.DE: Russia has recognized South Ossetia and Abkhazia as independent states despite the warnings from the West. Is a new Cold War on the cards?

 

Egon Bahr: No, and there also wasn't any danger of that when Kosovo declared its independence. A fundamental principle of international order is that no state or group of states can split an internationally recognized country, such as Serbia, in that case, and Georgia, in this one. Kosovo has not become a member of the United Nations and neither will Abkhazia. Kosovo is recognized by around 40 nations -- 160 have not done so. The number of countries that recognize Abkhazia and South Ossetia is likely to be even lower. In principle, a new state can only become independent when the United Nations recognizes it as such.

by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Aug 29th, 2008 at 01:26:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Georgians stuck in limbo begin to lash out at Saakashvili - Europe, World - The Independent

Passing along the road to Tkviavi, the lush green fields, bountiful orchards and gentle slopes of the Caucasus foothills give off the air of a sleepy rural paradise. But the scorched earth and burnt-out shells of cars that litter the roadside are clues that all is not right here, and the silence gripping the town that two weeks ago had a population of 1,300 is eerie.

Tkviavi is the closest town inside Georgia "proper" to the border with South Ossetia and its capital, Tskhinvali. Its residents watched as Georgian troops poured up the road three weeks ago in their ill-fated push to regain South Ossetia, and they watched as the army fled, leaving their village undefended. Along with them went the young of the town, scared of counter-attacks. Only the elderly and sick remained.

Then, on 12 August, Russian jets bombed the village, destroying dozens of homes. For a week afterwards, the feared maradyori - marauding gangs of South Ossetians and other irregular militias - surged down the road from Tskhinvali in an orgy of looting, torching and killing.

by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Aug 29th, 2008 at 01:26:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Nothing like a splendid little war to shore up support for petty autocracy, and nothing like losing it to get rid of the autocrat.

(I still claim Cyprus is a more appropriate comparison to S. Ossetia than Kosovo)

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Aug 29th, 2008 at 02:31:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Bernhard on MoA has an interesting titbid!

Georgia Propaganda and the Next Step - Moon of Alabama

It is really funny how this works in the 'western' media.

Meanwhile some circles are building up an alternative to Saakashvili. Nino Burjanadze was a member of the Georgian parliament since 1995 with then president Eduard Shevardnadze's party. She later joined Saakashvili in the U.S. managed rose revolution. In April she split with Saakashvili and last month she left the parliament and opened her own think-tank, the 'Foundation for Democracy and Development' in Tbilisi. The U.S. and the Russian ambassadors took part in the inauguration.

When the British foreign minister went to Tbilisi on August 21, he had an hour long meeting with her. Yesterday she met with Joe Biden in Denver.

bold by me.

by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Aug 29th, 2008 at 09:33:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Background: Europe's Reliance on Russian Energy | Europe | Deutsche Welle | 28.08.2008
Europe is increasingly reliant on Russia to supply its oil and natural gas, giving Moscow immense leverage over those European capitals that use its power most.

What follows is a country-by-country breakdown of Russian energy imports provided by the International Energy Agency. The figures represent each country's share of Russian imports in total consumption (percent). They refer to 2006, the latest year available to date.

by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Aug 29th, 2008 at 01:34:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Germany and Russia threaten EU-Ukraine relations - EUobserver

EUOBSERVER / BRUSSELS - Germany's close relations with Russia are the main obstacle to signing a major EU-Ukraine treaty at the upcoming EU-Ukraine summit in France, Ukraine diplomats say, warning that failure to seal the deal will signal to Moscow that it can veto EU policy on post-Soviet states.

Independence Square, Kiev - the scene of the 2004 Orange Revolution, when Ukraine broke away from the Russian sphere.

"There are maybe two or three countries who are strong opposers, strong sceptics," Ukrainian deputy foreign minister Konstantin Yeliseyev said in Brussels on Thursday (28 August), commenting on EU reluctance to state clearly that "the future of Ukraine lies in the European Union" in the preamble to the new treaty.

"In this regard, we count very much on the leadership of Germany, which is the engine of EU integration and a very powerful country, we count very much on their courage," he added, saying EU explanations - such as lack of formal consensus among the 27 states or public enlargement fatigue - are "not sincere."

"Some other countries like Belgium are also opposed. But Berlin is the key," another Ukraine official said, with just 12 days left to go before the summit in Evian, France. "They are telling us the chancellory is talking to the foreign ministry and so forth, but no matter what they say, the real problem is Russia."

by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Aug 29th, 2008 at 01:39:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Somebody is using Ukraine for very strange political manoeuvres...

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Aug 29th, 2008 at 02:29:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Property crash opens door to the new council house

Gordon Brown is set to usher in a new era of council housing by helping local authorities to buy repossessed and unsold properties. Cash and powers will be made available so that town halls can intervene in the housing market, The Times has learnt.

The measures - which could be announced as soon as Tuesday - will encourage councils and housing associations to offer struggling borrowers financial help in return for a stake in their homes or outright ownership. The number of council homes has plummeted since 1981 from 6.1 million to 2.5 million. Hundreds of millions of pounds of extra cash earmarked for social housing could now be released early to buy up newly built properties.

It is understood that town halls will also be encouraged to emulate Liverpool's local authority, which offers first-time buyers help with deposits in return for a small equity stake. Other options, including a stamp duty holiday, are being held back for further consideration

[Murdoch Alert]
by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Aug 29th, 2008 at 01:46:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]
No, that's the worst, most expensive way to do it and cos of the cost it won't solve anything. We have a massive housing shortage in the UK. We need to builda lot of cheap homes for rent, not sale.

 Offer to take the property on at cost, not with profit. Then employ companies and builders directly on fixed price contracts to build homes for subsidized rent and build a lot of houses of the type needed in places where they are needed. Stop this rash of highly-proitable "executive housing", the large numbers of crappy flats for "buy-to-let".

build homes for people, for indidviduals and families on low incomes.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Fri Aug 29th, 2008 at 05:48:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Close.

The key IMHO is to keep the land in public ownership, or take it into public ownership.

Builder/developers may be brought in as partners. They would invest an agreed profit margin, and any costs would be met by investors of risk capital, possibly from a constantly recycling pool of development credits.

Once a project is finished, long term investment in "Unitised" rentals would refinance the development credits, and allow the developers to realise any profits from their share of "Units".

The result is essentially a "Not for Profit" (but also "Not for Loss" ...! ) Real Estate Investment Trust.

Such partnership-based financing wipes the floor with conventional funding because:

(a) such "Community Equity" (within a partnership framework as opposed to the conventional "Equity" in a Company that makes the Private Sector "Private") involves no debt repayment: if investors want to release their Capital, they find buyers for their Units;

(b) "unitised" rents are;

(i) "affordable" - so more certain to be paid, and hence lower risk;

(ii) index-linked - so a lower return may be paid than when the return is non index-linked and eroded by inflation.

"Any economic unit can emit money. The serious problem is to get it accepted" Hyman Minsky

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Fri Aug 29th, 2008 at 08:11:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]
In Europe, driving is a hard habit to break, even with gas at $10 a gallon - International Herald Tribune

ROME: Ten dollars a gallon may seem unthinkable to American drivers still smarting from the spike in gas prices to around $4 a gallon. But that was nearly the price that Marco Annarumi faced recently when filling his Jeep on his way home from work.

"It hasn't changed my driving at all -- not a bit -- I just have to work harder," he said with seeming indifference.

High oil prices and high taxes on gas pushed the average price of gasoline to new heights in much of Europe this summer. Yet transportation experts in this laboratory of sky-high fuel prices say that many Europeans, out of necessity, habit or love, have proved surprisingly willing to bear the extra cost of driving. That raises questions as to how effective high prices by themselves can be in achieving the ambitious targets for reducing carbon dioxide emissions that European leaders have committed themselves to meeting.

Gas prices have persuaded some people to drive less. Traffic on the Eurostar train that links London and Paris was up 21 percent in the first three months of 2008. Gas purchases in Italy dropped 10 percent compared with the year before. Sales of gas-guzzling sport utility vehicles have plunged across the continent, just as they have in the United States.

by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Aug 29th, 2008 at 02:02:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Who the fuck drives from London to Paris? Eurostar doesn't displace cars it displaces planes. Oh, it's the IHT. That explains it.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Fri Aug 29th, 2008 at 02:04:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I got my Sept. 19-20 round trip for £94, virtually door to door...

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Aug 29th, 2008 at 02:28:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Umm, that'd be me. But I am going via Lyon and a couple of small inaccessible villages with a car full of english rations.

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Fri Aug 29th, 2008 at 05:50:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]
aka: ye olde marmite run

~Government budget deficits are not nearly as dangerous as the deficits we have created in vital and complex natural systems.~ Naomi Klein.
by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Fri Aug 29th, 2008 at 04:40:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Which reminds me that I have to run down to the ethnic shopping street in Helsinki where our Indian friends understand the importance of Marmite and Horlicks ;-)

This i,s of course, empirical evidence ;-)

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Fri Aug 29th, 2008 at 05:30:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Italians having difficulties giving up cars ?


Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères
by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Fri Aug 29th, 2008 at 06:48:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Guardian:
Shadows in the sunshine
It is a tourist favourite and looks EU bound, but Croatia's attitude to its fascist past is troubling

Croatia is a "small country for a big vacation", as the ads tell you. But beyond the marketing and optimistic reports of millions of holidaymakers spending their "big vacation" there, there is less cheerful news, casting an unpleasant shadow over that small tourist paradise on the Adriatic.

This summer Dinko Sakic, the 86-year-old former commander of Jasenovac, the notorious second world war concentration camp, was buried in his Ustashe uniform, the Croatian equivalent of the Nazis. After the war, Sakic emigrated to Argentina but returned after Croatian independence in 1991. He was welcomed back like a celebrity. In his interviews, Sakic repeated that he regretted nothing. What Sakic should have repented was that tens of thousands of inmates in Jasenovac were murdered under his command. He also personally executed two Jewish prisoners. Franjo Tudjman's government showed no will to put Sakic on trial until Israel signalled it was perfectly willing to try him there. So in 1998, Sakic was sentenced to a maximum of 20 years. At his funeral a Dominican priest, Vjekoslav Lasic gave a speech in which he advised Croats to admire Sakic and to take him as an example.

by lychee on Fri Aug 29th, 2008 at 04:44:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Almost as worrying as Italy's attitude to their facist present.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Fri Aug 29th, 2008 at 04:49:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]
the velvet version is user-friendly....a prophylactic!

besides, they look great in their uniforms, like clark gable...

pre-fascism, with your fettucini

~Government budget deficits are not nearly as dangerous as the deficits we have created in vital and complex natural systems.~ Naomi Klein.

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Fri Aug 29th, 2008 at 04:44:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Ho hum.

Maybe The West™ will wake up to the unsavoury side of Croatia's nationalism 10 to 15 years after they should have...

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Aug 29th, 2008 at 05:00:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well..."we told you so". That's why Serbs in Croatia did not want to stand under their Nazi flag.
Because they also remember Jasenovac...just from the other side of wire (those who were not murdered).
Croats never denied that they are proud of their Nazi past...never ever...especially not trough this war of 90ies.But you did not want to hear them. Western fairytale of good guys vs. bad guys would be spoiled.
by vbo on Fri Aug 29th, 2008 at 05:45:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Please tell us about the Chetnik, too...

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Aug 29th, 2008 at 05:53:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well to make long story short Chetnics originally were Serbian fighters (guerrilla) AGAINST Germans. And against communists (most of the time) all though they cooperated from time to time against Germans. Looks like they cooperated from time to time with enemy against communists too (not sure about this). Murky times...They were royalists.
After the war against Germans (and civil war at the same time) Tito had to make balance between nations in order to make "brotherhood and unity" alive. That's why our history books equalized Ustashe (Croats Nazi force) and Chetnics both as same evil. But they were nothing like same at all. Sorry I am not in a mood to write long posts at the moment so I'll copy/paste few things from Internet that I found relevant:

The Royal Serbian army, better known as "the chetnics", under the command of general Draza Mihailovic, saved a total number of 513 American pilots during WW2.
...General Draza was awarded the Legion of Merit for his heroic deeds.
...Legion of Merit is the highest USA decoration meant for foreign citizens for exceptional merits. Draza Mihailovic was decorated at the proposal of USA General Dwight Eisenhower.
...Hollywood even made a movie during WW2 about the Serbian chetnics, which are today portrayed as some sort of animals that bite off people's ears and stuff...
...He did indeed earn the Legion of Merit after the war, and it was indeed kept secret -- to avoid offending Tito's Yugoslavia.

Mind you most of these pilots were saved even after the Allies had made the decision to abandon supporting General Draza Mihailovic's Chetniks and switch to supporting Tito's Communist Partizans in late 1943, after the Chetniks had paved the way for a German defeat in Yugoslavia.
...in Serbia and Eastern Bosnia the Serbs fought against the Germans to the end.
...Tito, the half Croat/half Slovene, took enjoyment turning his Partizan army made up of at least 80% Serbs on fellow Serbian Chetniks. He didn't give a rat's arse about the Serbian population and this was proved by the fact that Croatian Ustashe run death camps especially in Jasenovac and Stara Gradiska were liberated by the Russian Red Army despite the fact that the Partizans were in a position to do so as the Ustashe at the end of 1944 were well and truly defeated and most of their troops fled towards Austria.

It's interesting that even Stalin supported Mihailovich up until 1943, and he switched to Tito later, in 1944. But Tito and the communist owe their power in Yugoslavia mainly to the support of Churchill and the British.
...Even though the Chetnics did cooperate with the Germans and the Italians from time to time (if there wasn't for the Italians and the partisans, Serbian population in Croatia would've been completely annihilated by the Croats), but that cooperation mainly came to agreements of non-attacking, or attacking the communists.
...After Tito completely took over, and after the war ended, the communists killed in cold blood thousands and thousands of "disloyal" Serbs who weren't communists.

Considering other nations living in Yugoslavia, almost all of them collaborated with the NAZI's. The Croats even created a Nazi satellite state NDH (the Independent state of Croatia) and conducted one of the worst ever genocide against the Serbian population, almost 1 million Serbs, according to some estimations.
...The Croats and the Muslims in Bosnia, later greatly supported by western countries during the latest wars, were members of the largest SS division Hitler ever had. It was called 13th Waffen Mountain Division of the SS Handschar (1st Croatian).
Quote:
The 13th Waffen Mountain Division of the SS Handschar (1st Croatian) was one of the thirty-eight divisions fielded as part of the Waffen-SS during World War II. It was the largest of the SS divisions, with 21,065 men at its peak[citation needed], composed almost entirely of non-German Muslim and Catholic recruits drawn from Bosnia. Handschar (Bosnian/Croatian: Handžar) was the local word for the Turkish scimitar (Arabic: Khanjar خنجر), a historical symbol of Bosnia and Islam. An image of the Handschar adorned the division's flag and coat of arms.

After the war, he (Mihajlovic) was tried and convicted of high treason by Yugoslav authorities, and was consequently executed by firing squad.
...However, Mihailović decided against active resistance, allegedly because of Serb losses in World War I, in which the Kingdom of Serbia lost a quarter of its male population to the war.[2] Instead, Mihailović gathered men and weapons in the easily defensible Serbian mountains, waiting for an Allied landing in the Balkans, upon which he could attack any Germans or Italians from behind. Mihailović discouraged sabotage due to German reprisals (such as more than 3,000 killed in Kraljevo and Kragujevac) unless some great gain could be accomplished; instead, he favored delayed sabotage that could not easily be traced.

And so on...

by vbo on Fri Aug 29th, 2008 at 09:36:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]
vbo, maybe you should post this and some of your other comments as a diary! Would keep the information more neatly to gether and maybe make discussing it easier. :-)

And great to see you here on ET more often again!

by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Aug 29th, 2008 at 09:41:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You are right! I hijacked the thread. Sorry!
by vbo on Fri Aug 29th, 2008 at 09:54:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]
No need to apologize - I just think your links and stuff would be diary worthy!!! :-)
by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Aug 29th, 2008 at 10:10:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]
When she makes it a diary she should spend some time addressing
Throughout the War, the Chetnik movement remained relatively inactive against the occupation forces, and increasingly collaborated with the Axis, losing its international recognition as the Yugoslav resistance force. After a brief initial period of cooperation, the two factions quickly started fighting against each-other. Gradually, the Chetniks ended up primarily fighting the Partisans instead of the occupation forces, and started cooperating with the Axis in their struggle to destroy the resistance, receiving increasing amounts of logistical assistance (in particular, from Italy).
The same Wikipedia article includes allegations of ethnic cleansing as well as
During the Yugoslav wars, Serb paramilitaries often self-identified as Chetniks. Vojislav Šešelj's Serbian Radical Party formed the White Eagles which was identified as Chetniks. Vuk Drašković's Serbian Renewal Movement was closely associated with the Serbian Guard, which was also associated with Chetniks and monarchism.
and
In late 2004, the National Assembly of Serbia passed a new law that equalized the rights of the former Chetnik members with those of the former Partisans, including the right to war pensions. Rights were granted on the basis that both were anti-fascist movements that fought occupiers, and this formulation has entered the law. The vote was 176 for, 24 against and 4 abstained. The Socialist Party of Serbia (SPS) of Slobodan Milošević was the one voting against the decision.
and
Today Chetnik activity is seriously restricted or banned in all neighbouring countries other than Serbia and Republika Srpska in Bosnia and Herzegovina. Milorad Pupovac of the Independent Democratic Serbian Party in Croatia, has called the organization "fascist collaborators". In 2003, the Montenegrin government forbade the building of a statue of Pavle Đurišić near Berane.
For what it's worth...

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Aug 29th, 2008 at 10:53:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
boy, are you a source for motivation! :-)
by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Aug 29th, 2008 at 11:04:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, you were ready to take vbo's word that the Ustashe were fascist but not the Chetnik, who were patriots. They were both patriots, and fascist.

We have had discussions of similar Polish and Baltic factions in the past...

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Aug 29th, 2008 at 11:13:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, but I guess it would be more motivating to let her write her diary first and then discuss the counterarguments there. :-)
by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Aug 29th, 2008 at 11:37:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]
They were both patriots, and fascist.

Well I don't think so. As I said looks like they did cooperate at some points with Germans and Italians against communists but they were far from fascists. Ideologically they were NO fascists.
As opposed to Ustashe that were WORSE then German fascists.Ideologically and in practice...
Would Americans give Legion of Merit to a fascist?
Looking at the present time...Well one never knows haha.
What your Croat friends have to say about Ustashe ?...I am curious...

by vbo on Fri Aug 29th, 2008 at 11:45:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Would Americans give Legion of Merit to a fascist?
Looking at the present time...Well one never knows haha.

Hey, it's well-documented that the Americans enlisted former Nazis to fight the Communists after WWII, so...

I never debated WWII with my Croatian friends, but I can tell you a large part of them had no patience for Tudjman.

Interestingly it tended to be either older people, or the girls my age. The boys my age (they were between 15 and 20 in the early 90's) were all gung-ho nationalists. Must be a side effect of the high testosterone levels.

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Aug 29th, 2008 at 11:53:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Not quite sure how the Ustashe were worse than the Nazis. Unlike Migeru I wouldn't characterize the Chetniks as straight out fascist, more Franco style nationalist-conservative-authoritarian with fascist elements. But then some do see Franco as straight fascist.

Also you really shouldn't make the mistake of saying that because they fought against one set of fascists that somehow makes them non-fascist. The Polish fascist resistance group NSZ, for example, consistently fought the Nazis during the occupation, but they were very much fascists - more so actually than the Chetniks, and just as much as the Ustashe.

by MarekNYC on Fri Aug 29th, 2008 at 11:54:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Unlike Migeru I wouldn't characterize the Chetniks as straight out fascist, more Franco style nationalist-conservative-authoritarian with fascist elements. But then some do see Franco as straight fascist.

We have had this debate before, and I have conceded your point that Franco was a soft fascist.

But I'll still call him a fascist anyway even if it's not 100% accurate in political science terms.

Franco may not have been a fascist, but the CEDADE and the Falange were straight-out pascists, and he folded them into his National Movement.

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Aug 29th, 2008 at 12:00:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Nationalist-conservative, yes, Chetnics were but I don't see them necessarily as fascists. I don't see them as racists for example...but then again who knows what would be the case if they managed to get in power. Ustashe managed (with a help of Hitler) to get in power and it was real practical fascism, racism...you name it. No other word for it and especially not patriots all tho they were patriotic in a way that they would do anything ( and I mean anything even go along with Hitler) for Croatia.
by vbo on Fri Aug 29th, 2008 at 12:21:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Racism was very central to German fascism, same goes for the French and the various East Central European ones. But that wasn't the case for the Italians and the Spaniards.  
by MarekNYC on Fri Aug 29th, 2008 at 12:47:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Not quite sure how the Ustashe were worse than the Nazis.

I meant for Serbs in WWII. Germans did terrible crimes (especially in revenge for killed German solders) but Ustashe wiped whole villages, whole families down to the baby in a cot in most horrific "manners". Plane evil...and Jasenovac will be for ever engraved in Serbian collective mind...never to be forgotten. Again it's a game with numbers but the numbers are huge one way or another...Have you seen movie "Occupation in 26 pictures"...Croatian director...made before these war.Try to find it and you may get a glimse of the picture about Ustashe
Well we can talk about it some other time. It'v well passed bad time here in Oz.
by vbo on Fri Aug 29th, 2008 at 12:38:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]
During the Yugoslav wars, Serb paramilitaries often self-identified as Chetniks. Vojislav Šešelj's Serbian Radical Party formed the White Eagles which was identified as Chetniks. Vuk Drašković's Serbian Renewal Movement was closely associated with the Serbian Guard, which was also associated with Chetniks and monarchism.

Those who presented (or still present) their selves as Chetnics nowadays have absolutely nothing to do with real Chetnics organization that is actually non-existent nowadays. Some oldies may still live somewhere in exile but they are really old and totally out of touch with what is really happening on the Balkan. Sheshelj used them to get hold of their money representing him self as Chetnic (and he can't be farther then that).Similar thing is with Drashkovic. Those oldies finally realized those false Chetnics are only interested in their money and they do not want to have anything with those thieves.

In late 2004, the National Assembly of Serbia passed a new law that equalized the rights of the former Chetnik members with those of the former Partisans, including the right to war pensions. Rights were granted on the basis that both were anti-fascist movements that fought occupiers, and this formulation has entered the law. The vote was 176 for, 24 against and 4 abstained. The Socialist Party of Serbia (SPS) of Slobodan Milošević was the one voting against the decision.

This was done to finally finish "civil war" in Serbia between partisans and Chetnics. I believe it's right thing.Milosevics SPS are "partisans" that enjoyed all privilegies for decades.And they killed probably more Serbs (during and after WWII) then Germans did.Time to reconsile...
by vbo on Fri Aug 29th, 2008 at 12:02:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]
But Tito and the communist owe their power in Yugoslavia mainly to the support of Churchill and the British.

One of the conspiracy theories in Serbia during Tito's times was that Tito actually was British "agent". He never spoke language properly and had totally strange accent...nothing like Croat ...or even Russian...or Slav...
Why for the sake of God would Churchill give up on a royalist (our king and his family had asylum in GB at the time) and go support the communist???  Why Yugoslavia was allowed to say NO to Russia in 1948 and have it's own way ...Must be some fucking experiment agreed between British and Russian leaders...
by vbo on Fri Aug 29th, 2008 at 09:51:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm so tired of Tito conspiracy theories.

When talking to Croatian friends in the 90's they would accuse Yugoslavia of being a Serb supremacist device to destroy Croatians as an independent people, and when I said "but Tito was a Croat" they said "but he was a Communist".

It's all about bogeymen, and when the ethnicity of the bogeyman is not the right one you can always blame the Communists. (Like Stalin the Georgian and Brezhnev the Ukrainian)

Bah, humbug.

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Aug 29th, 2008 at 10:59:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Croats never denied that they are proud of their Nazi past...never ever...especially not trough this war of 90ies.But you did not want to hear them. Western fairytale of good guys vs. bad guys would be spoiled.

Who is you? Not me, that's for sure.

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Aug 29th, 2008 at 11:40:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I am sorry...when I say you I usually think West Europeans...nothing personal...
by vbo on Fri Aug 29th, 2008 at 12:25:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
And we keep asking you whether you read European Tribune every time you call us us "you".

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Aug 29th, 2008 at 12:26:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
There's a lot of truth in that for the early phases of the war. But later on there was plenty of very critical press on the Croats, both their war crimes and their soft spot for the Ustashe.
by MarekNYC on Fri Aug 29th, 2008 at 11:49:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Not to mention the controversy over the beatification of cardinal Stepinac by Pope Wojtyla...

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Aug 29th, 2008 at 11:55:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]

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