German weekly in propaganda row over Ossetia conflict Europe's largest news magazine has been accused of propaganda by one of its own staff, who says it refused to publish pictures showing the devastation left by the Georgian military in South Ossetia. The photographer believes that the liberal German weekly Spiegel made a political decision to ignore the images as part of a pro-American stance on the conflict. Pavel Kassin has been working for the weekly since 1990 and has never before had any problems getting his photographs published. Last week, he and his German colleague Uwe Klussman, employed by Spiegel's Moscow bureau, were sent to South Ossetia to report on the aftermath of the war. On his return, Pavel sent 29 pictures to the magazine's Hamburg HQ - but was shocked to find that none of them appeared in the latest issue released on Monday. Kassin was so angry he gave an interview to the Russian daily Izvestia. "Could it be that the most liberal, democratic and independent magazine has gone down the road of ideological one-sided propaganda?" he said. "In my view this is one of the rare cases when Spiegel has taken a pro-American stance." In the last three issues Spiegel has given extensive coverage to the war in the Caucasus, but only a few articles have dealt with the situation in South Ossetia. The rest have shown Georgia as a `martyr' suffering from `Russian aggression'. Most images featured ruined houses in the Georgian town of Gori and crushed military ships in the port of Poti. Meanwhile, the South Ossetian capital Tskhinval, which suffered 12 hours of bombing by the Georgian military, is shown like a city living an ordinary life. Most photographs were by correspondents of the world's leading news agencies. The weekly has also used several pictures by Russian photographers from Reuters and AP. This year Spiegel has seen changes in its top management. Its long-time editor-in-chief Stefan Aust was replaced by two new chief editors.
Pavel Kassin has been working for the weekly since 1990 and has never before had any problems getting his photographs published.
Last week, he and his German colleague Uwe Klussman, employed by Spiegel's Moscow bureau, were sent to South Ossetia to report on the aftermath of the war.
On his return, Pavel sent 29 pictures to the magazine's Hamburg HQ - but was shocked to find that none of them appeared in the latest issue released on Monday.
Kassin was so angry he gave an interview to the Russian daily Izvestia.
"Could it be that the most liberal, democratic and independent magazine has gone down the road of ideological one-sided propaganda?" he said. "In my view this is one of the rare cases when Spiegel has taken a pro-American stance."
In the last three issues Spiegel has given extensive coverage to the war in the Caucasus, but only a few articles have dealt with the situation in South Ossetia.
The rest have shown Georgia as a `martyr' suffering from `Russian aggression'. Most images featured ruined houses in the Georgian town of Gori and crushed military ships in the port of Poti.
Meanwhile, the South Ossetian capital Tskhinval, which suffered 12 hours of bombing by the Georgian military, is shown like a city living an ordinary life.
Most photographs were by correspondents of the world's leading news agencies. The weekly has also used several pictures by Russian photographers from Reuters and AP.
This year Spiegel has seen changes in its top management. Its long-time editor-in-chief Stefan Aust was replaced by two new chief editors.
Even the BBC hitched rides with the russians to see what was happening in S Ossetia. They seemed to get good co-operation from the russians too. That said I can't deny there was a pro-georgian bias in the reporting, so stuff from the russian side was downplayed as georgia got its media act together.
What has been fascinating to me is the changes in the narrative in diverse media. The BBC is following the Government/white House line pretty strongly now. I was surprised when Medvedev gave them an interview cos that's just Obama going on Fox.
But the print media, more specifically the Guardian and the independent have been all over the place. Starting off pro-Georgia and then gradually realising they got conned.
the Guardian is now very hostile to the Ukraine joining in and has criticised the Polish missile agreements. But when they go after Milliband's exhibitionism I don't know if that's tied to a rational internationalist stance or merely anti-milliband propaganda coming from Gordon Brown trying to discredit a rival. keep to the Fen Causeway
See, while America's auto sales have gone into a nosedive, Russia just surpassed Germany to become the largest automobile market in Europe this year. Russians bought as many cars in the first six months of 2008 as they did in the entire last year, 1.65 million to be exact. The luxury category has posted the biggest growth, adding hundreds of thousands of uber-expesive automobiles to Russia's decrepit roads.
Nothing against the Gazprom, BMW, and Mercedes workers, but this is a poor model of economic development for both countries.
The West should be seeking to improve cooperation with Russia rather than getting agitated about Moscow's recognition of Abkhazia and South Ossetia, according to veteran Social Democratic politician Egon Bahr. Bahr was Deputy Minister of the Chancellery under the then German Chancellor Willy Brandt and is acknowledged as playing a major role in Brandt's "Ostpolitik," which sought to normalize relations with Eastern European nations by rapprochement. DW-WORLD.DE spoke to Bahr about how the West should respond to Moscow in the wake of recent events in Georgia. DW-WORLD.DE: Russia has recognized South Ossetia and Abkhazia as independent states despite the warnings from the West. Is a new Cold War on the cards? Egon Bahr: No, and there also wasn't any danger of that when Kosovo declared its independence. A fundamental principle of international order is that no state or group of states can split an internationally recognized country, such as Serbia, in that case, and Georgia, in this one. Kosovo has not become a member of the United Nations and neither will Abkhazia. Kosovo is recognized by around 40 nations -- 160 have not done so. The number of countries that recognize Abkhazia and South Ossetia is likely to be even lower. In principle, a new state can only become independent when the United Nations recognizes it as such.
Bahr was Deputy Minister of the Chancellery under the then German Chancellor Willy Brandt and is acknowledged as playing a major role in Brandt's "Ostpolitik," which sought to normalize relations with Eastern European nations by rapprochement. DW-WORLD.DE spoke to Bahr about how the West should respond to Moscow in the wake of recent events in Georgia.
DW-WORLD.DE: Russia has recognized South Ossetia and Abkhazia as independent states despite the warnings from the West. Is a new Cold War on the cards?
Egon Bahr: No, and there also wasn't any danger of that when Kosovo declared its independence. A fundamental principle of international order is that no state or group of states can split an internationally recognized country, such as Serbia, in that case, and Georgia, in this one. Kosovo has not become a member of the United Nations and neither will Abkhazia. Kosovo is recognized by around 40 nations -- 160 have not done so. The number of countries that recognize Abkhazia and South Ossetia is likely to be even lower. In principle, a new state can only become independent when the United Nations recognizes it as such.
Passing along the road to Tkviavi, the lush green fields, bountiful orchards and gentle slopes of the Caucasus foothills give off the air of a sleepy rural paradise. But the scorched earth and burnt-out shells of cars that litter the roadside are clues that all is not right here, and the silence gripping the town that two weeks ago had a population of 1,300 is eerie. Tkviavi is the closest town inside Georgia "proper" to the border with South Ossetia and its capital, Tskhinvali. Its residents watched as Georgian troops poured up the road three weeks ago in their ill-fated push to regain South Ossetia, and they watched as the army fled, leaving their village undefended. Along with them went the young of the town, scared of counter-attacks. Only the elderly and sick remained. Then, on 12 August, Russian jets bombed the village, destroying dozens of homes. For a week afterwards, the feared maradyori - marauding gangs of South Ossetians and other irregular militias - surged down the road from Tskhinvali in an orgy of looting, torching and killing.
Passing along the road to Tkviavi, the lush green fields, bountiful orchards and gentle slopes of the Caucasus foothills give off the air of a sleepy rural paradise. But the scorched earth and burnt-out shells of cars that litter the roadside are clues that all is not right here, and the silence gripping the town that two weeks ago had a population of 1,300 is eerie.
Tkviavi is the closest town inside Georgia "proper" to the border with South Ossetia and its capital, Tskhinvali. Its residents watched as Georgian troops poured up the road three weeks ago in their ill-fated push to regain South Ossetia, and they watched as the army fled, leaving their village undefended. Along with them went the young of the town, scared of counter-attacks. Only the elderly and sick remained.
Then, on 12 August, Russian jets bombed the village, destroying dozens of homes. For a week afterwards, the feared maradyori - marauding gangs of South Ossetians and other irregular militias - surged down the road from Tskhinvali in an orgy of looting, torching and killing.
(I still claim Cyprus is a more appropriate comparison to S. Ossetia than Kosovo) A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith
Georgia Propaganda and the Next Step - Moon of Alabama
It is really funny how this works in the 'western' media. Meanwhile some circles are building up an alternative to Saakashvili. Nino Burjanadze was a member of the Georgian parliament since 1995 with then president Eduard Shevardnadze's party. She later joined Saakashvili in the U.S. managed rose revolution. In April she split with Saakashvili and last month she left the parliament and opened her own think-tank, the 'Foundation for Democracy and Development' in Tbilisi. The U.S. and the Russian ambassadors took part in the inauguration. When the British foreign minister went to Tbilisi on August 21, he had an hour long meeting with her. Yesterday she met with Joe Biden in Denver.
It is really funny how this works in the 'western' media.
Meanwhile some circles are building up an alternative to Saakashvili. Nino Burjanadze was a member of the Georgian parliament since 1995 with then president Eduard Shevardnadze's party. She later joined Saakashvili in the U.S. managed rose revolution. In April she split with Saakashvili and last month she left the parliament and opened her own think-tank, the 'Foundation for Democracy and Development' in Tbilisi. The U.S. and the Russian ambassadors took part in the inauguration.
When the British foreign minister went to Tbilisi on August 21, he had an hour long meeting with her. Yesterday she met with Joe Biden in Denver.
bold by me.
Europe is increasingly reliant on Russia to supply its oil and natural gas, giving Moscow immense leverage over those European capitals that use its power most. What follows is a country-by-country breakdown of Russian energy imports provided by the International Energy Agency. The figures represent each country's share of Russian imports in total consumption (percent). They refer to 2006, the latest year available to date.
What follows is a country-by-country breakdown of Russian energy imports provided by the International Energy Agency. The figures represent each country's share of Russian imports in total consumption (percent). They refer to 2006, the latest year available to date.
EUOBSERVER / BRUSSELS - Germany's close relations with Russia are the main obstacle to signing a major EU-Ukraine treaty at the upcoming EU-Ukraine summit in France, Ukraine diplomats say, warning that failure to seal the deal will signal to Moscow that it can veto EU policy on post-Soviet states. Independence Square, Kiev - the scene of the 2004 Orange Revolution, when Ukraine broke away from the Russian sphere. "There are maybe two or three countries who are strong opposers, strong sceptics," Ukrainian deputy foreign minister Konstantin Yeliseyev said in Brussels on Thursday (28 August), commenting on EU reluctance to state clearly that "the future of Ukraine lies in the European Union" in the preamble to the new treaty. "In this regard, we count very much on the leadership of Germany, which is the engine of EU integration and a very powerful country, we count very much on their courage," he added, saying EU explanations - such as lack of formal consensus among the 27 states or public enlargement fatigue - are "not sincere." "Some other countries like Belgium are also opposed. But Berlin is the key," another Ukraine official said, with just 12 days left to go before the summit in Evian, France. "They are telling us the chancellory is talking to the foreign ministry and so forth, but no matter what they say, the real problem is Russia."
EUOBSERVER / BRUSSELS - Germany's close relations with Russia are the main obstacle to signing a major EU-Ukraine treaty at the upcoming EU-Ukraine summit in France, Ukraine diplomats say, warning that failure to seal the deal will signal to Moscow that it can veto EU policy on post-Soviet states.
Independence Square, Kiev - the scene of the 2004 Orange Revolution, when Ukraine broke away from the Russian sphere.
"There are maybe two or three countries who are strong opposers, strong sceptics," Ukrainian deputy foreign minister Konstantin Yeliseyev said in Brussels on Thursday (28 August), commenting on EU reluctance to state clearly that "the future of Ukraine lies in the European Union" in the preamble to the new treaty.
"In this regard, we count very much on the leadership of Germany, which is the engine of EU integration and a very powerful country, we count very much on their courage," he added, saying EU explanations - such as lack of formal consensus among the 27 states or public enlargement fatigue - are "not sincere."
"Some other countries like Belgium are also opposed. But Berlin is the key," another Ukraine official said, with just 12 days left to go before the summit in Evian, France. "They are telling us the chancellory is talking to the foreign ministry and so forth, but no matter what they say, the real problem is Russia."
Gordon Brown is set to usher in a new era of council housing by helping local authorities to buy repossessed and unsold properties. Cash and powers will be made available so that town halls can intervene in the housing market, The Times has learnt. The measures - which could be announced as soon as Tuesday - will encourage councils and housing associations to offer struggling borrowers financial help in return for a stake in their homes or outright ownership. The number of council homes has plummeted since 1981 from 6.1 million to 2.5 million. Hundreds of millions of pounds of extra cash earmarked for social housing could now be released early to buy up newly built properties. It is understood that town halls will also be encouraged to emulate Liverpool's local authority, which offers first-time buyers help with deposits in return for a small equity stake. Other options, including a stamp duty holiday, are being held back for further consideration
Gordon Brown is set to usher in a new era of council housing by helping local authorities to buy repossessed and unsold properties. Cash and powers will be made available so that town halls can intervene in the housing market, The Times has learnt.
The measures - which could be announced as soon as Tuesday - will encourage councils and housing associations to offer struggling borrowers financial help in return for a stake in their homes or outright ownership. The number of council homes has plummeted since 1981 from 6.1 million to 2.5 million. Hundreds of millions of pounds of extra cash earmarked for social housing could now be released early to buy up newly built properties.
It is understood that town halls will also be encouraged to emulate Liverpool's local authority, which offers first-time buyers help with deposits in return for a small equity stake. Other options, including a stamp duty holiday, are being held back for further consideration
Offer to take the property on at cost, not with profit. Then employ companies and builders directly on fixed price contracts to build homes for subsidized rent and build a lot of houses of the type needed in places where they are needed. Stop this rash of highly-proitable "executive housing", the large numbers of crappy flats for "buy-to-let".
build homes for people, for indidviduals and families on low incomes. keep to the Fen Causeway
The key IMHO is to keep the land in public ownership, or take it into public ownership.
Builder/developers may be brought in as partners. They would invest an agreed profit margin, and any costs would be met by investors of risk capital, possibly from a constantly recycling pool of development credits.
Once a project is finished, long term investment in "Unitised" rentals would refinance the development credits, and allow the developers to realise any profits from their share of "Units".
The result is essentially a "Not for Profit" (but also "Not for Loss" ...! ) Real Estate Investment Trust.
Such partnership-based financing wipes the floor with conventional funding because:
(a) such "Community Equity" (within a partnership framework as opposed to the conventional "Equity" in a Company that makes the Private Sector "Private") involves no debt repayment: if investors want to release their Capital, they find buyers for their Units;
(b) "unitised" rents are;
(i) "affordable" - so more certain to be paid, and hence lower risk;
(ii) index-linked - so a lower return may be paid than when the return is non index-linked and eroded by inflation. "Any economic unit can emit money. The serious problem is to get it accepted" Hyman Minsky
ROME: Ten dollars a gallon may seem unthinkable to American drivers still smarting from the spike in gas prices to around $4 a gallon. But that was nearly the price that Marco Annarumi faced recently when filling his Jeep on his way home from work. "It hasn't changed my driving at all -- not a bit -- I just have to work harder," he said with seeming indifference. High oil prices and high taxes on gas pushed the average price of gasoline to new heights in much of Europe this summer. Yet transportation experts in this laboratory of sky-high fuel prices say that many Europeans, out of necessity, habit or love, have proved surprisingly willing to bear the extra cost of driving. That raises questions as to how effective high prices by themselves can be in achieving the ambitious targets for reducing carbon dioxide emissions that European leaders have committed themselves to meeting. Gas prices have persuaded some people to drive less. Traffic on the Eurostar train that links London and Paris was up 21 percent in the first three months of 2008. Gas purchases in Italy dropped 10 percent compared with the year before. Sales of gas-guzzling sport utility vehicles have plunged across the continent, just as they have in the United States.
ROME: Ten dollars a gallon may seem unthinkable to American drivers still smarting from the spike in gas prices to around $4 a gallon. But that was nearly the price that Marco Annarumi faced recently when filling his Jeep on his way home from work.
"It hasn't changed my driving at all -- not a bit -- I just have to work harder," he said with seeming indifference.
High oil prices and high taxes on gas pushed the average price of gasoline to new heights in much of Europe this summer. Yet transportation experts in this laboratory of sky-high fuel prices say that many Europeans, out of necessity, habit or love, have proved surprisingly willing to bear the extra cost of driving. That raises questions as to how effective high prices by themselves can be in achieving the ambitious targets for reducing carbon dioxide emissions that European leaders have committed themselves to meeting.
Gas prices have persuaded some people to drive less. Traffic on the Eurostar train that links London and Paris was up 21 percent in the first three months of 2008. Gas purchases in Italy dropped 10 percent compared with the year before. Sales of gas-guzzling sport utility vehicles have plunged across the continent, just as they have in the United States.
This i,s of course, empirical evidence ;-) You can't be me, I'm taken
Croatia is a "small country for a big vacation", as the ads tell you. But beyond the marketing and optimistic reports of millions of holidaymakers spending their "big vacation" there, there is less cheerful news, casting an unpleasant shadow over that small tourist paradise on the Adriatic. This summer Dinko Sakic, the 86-year-old former commander of Jasenovac, the notorious second world war concentration camp, was buried in his Ustashe uniform, the Croatian equivalent of the Nazis. After the war, Sakic emigrated to Argentina but returned after Croatian independence in 1991. He was welcomed back like a celebrity. In his interviews, Sakic repeated that he regretted nothing. What Sakic should have repented was that tens of thousands of inmates in Jasenovac were murdered under his command. He also personally executed two Jewish prisoners. Franjo Tudjman's government showed no will to put Sakic on trial until Israel signalled it was perfectly willing to try him there. So in 1998, Sakic was sentenced to a maximum of 20 years. At his funeral a Dominican priest, Vjekoslav Lasic gave a speech in which he advised Croats to admire Sakic and to take him as an example.
This summer Dinko Sakic, the 86-year-old former commander of Jasenovac, the notorious second world war concentration camp, was buried in his Ustashe uniform, the Croatian equivalent of the Nazis. After the war, Sakic emigrated to Argentina but returned after Croatian independence in 1991. He was welcomed back like a celebrity. In his interviews, Sakic repeated that he regretted nothing. What Sakic should have repented was that tens of thousands of inmates in Jasenovac were murdered under his command. He also personally executed two Jewish prisoners. Franjo Tudjman's government showed no will to put Sakic on trial until Israel signalled it was perfectly willing to try him there. So in 1998, Sakic was sentenced to a maximum of 20 years. At his funeral a Dominican priest, Vjekoslav Lasic gave a speech in which he advised Croats to admire Sakic and to take him as an example.
besides, they look great in their uniforms, like clark gable...
pre-fascism, with your fettucini ~Government budget deficits are not nearly as dangerous as the deficits we have created in vital and complex natural systems.~ Naomi Klein.
Maybe The West™ will wake up to the unsavoury side of Croatia's nationalism 10 to 15 years after they should have... A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith
The Royal Serbian army, better known as "the chetnics", under the command of general Draza Mihailovic, saved a total number of 513 American pilots during WW2. ...General Draza was awarded the Legion of Merit for his heroic deeds. ...Legion of Merit is the highest USA decoration meant for foreign citizens for exceptional merits. Draza Mihailovic was decorated at the proposal of USA General Dwight Eisenhower. ...Hollywood even made a movie during WW2 about the Serbian chetnics, which are today portrayed as some sort of animals that bite off people's ears and stuff... ...He did indeed earn the Legion of Merit after the war, and it was indeed kept secret -- to avoid offending Tito's Yugoslavia.
Mind you most of these pilots were saved even after the Allies had made the decision to abandon supporting General Draza Mihailovic's Chetniks and switch to supporting Tito's Communist Partizans in late 1943, after the Chetniks had paved the way for a German defeat in Yugoslavia. ...in Serbia and Eastern Bosnia the Serbs fought against the Germans to the end. ...Tito, the half Croat/half Slovene, took enjoyment turning his Partizan army made up of at least 80% Serbs on fellow Serbian Chetniks. He didn't give a rat's arse about the Serbian population and this was proved by the fact that Croatian Ustashe run death camps especially in Jasenovac and Stara Gradiska were liberated by the Russian Red Army despite the fact that the Partizans were in a position to do so as the Ustashe at the end of 1944 were well and truly defeated and most of their troops fled towards Austria.
It's interesting that even Stalin supported Mihailovich up until 1943, and he switched to Tito later, in 1944. But Tito and the communist owe their power in Yugoslavia mainly to the support of Churchill and the British. ...Even though the Chetnics did cooperate with the Germans and the Italians from time to time (if there wasn't for the Italians and the partisans, Serbian population in Croatia would've been completely annihilated by the Croats), but that cooperation mainly came to agreements of non-attacking, or attacking the communists. ...After Tito completely took over, and after the war ended, the communists killed in cold blood thousands and thousands of "disloyal" Serbs who weren't communists. Considering other nations living in Yugoslavia, almost all of them collaborated with the NAZI's. The Croats even created a Nazi satellite state NDH (the Independent state of Croatia) and conducted one of the worst ever genocide against the Serbian population, almost 1 million Serbs, according to some estimations. ...The Croats and the Muslims in Bosnia, later greatly supported by western countries during the latest wars, were members of the largest SS division Hitler ever had. It was called 13th Waffen Mountain Division of the SS Handschar (1st Croatian). Quote: The 13th Waffen Mountain Division of the SS Handschar (1st Croatian) was one of the thirty-eight divisions fielded as part of the Waffen-SS during World War II. It was the largest of the SS divisions, with 21,065 men at its peak[citation needed], composed almost entirely of non-German Muslim and Catholic recruits drawn from Bosnia. Handschar (Bosnian/Croatian: Handar) was the local word for the Turkish scimitar (Arabic: Khanjar خنجر), a historical symbol of Bosnia and Islam. An image of the Handschar adorned the division's flag and coat of arms.
Considering other nations living in Yugoslavia, almost all of them collaborated with the NAZI's. The Croats even created a Nazi satellite state NDH (the Independent state of Croatia) and conducted one of the worst ever genocide against the Serbian population, almost 1 million Serbs, according to some estimations. ...The Croats and the Muslims in Bosnia, later greatly supported by western countries during the latest wars, were members of the largest SS division Hitler ever had. It was called 13th Waffen Mountain Division of the SS Handschar (1st Croatian). Quote: The 13th Waffen Mountain Division of the SS Handschar (1st Croatian) was one of the thirty-eight divisions fielded as part of the Waffen-SS during World War II. It was the largest of the SS divisions, with 21,065 men at its peak[citation needed], composed almost entirely of non-German Muslim and Catholic recruits drawn from Bosnia. Handschar (Bosnian/Croatian: Handar) was the local word for the Turkish scimitar (Arabic: Khanjar خنجر), a historical symbol of Bosnia and Islam. An image of the Handschar adorned the division's flag and coat of arms.
After the war, he (Mihajlovic) was tried and convicted of high treason by Yugoslav authorities, and was consequently executed by firing squad. ...However, Mihailović decided against active resistance, allegedly because of Serb losses in World War I, in which the Kingdom of Serbia lost a quarter of its male population to the war.[2] Instead, Mihailović gathered men and weapons in the easily defensible Serbian mountains, waiting for an Allied landing in the Balkans, upon which he could attack any Germans or Italians from behind. Mihailović discouraged sabotage due to German reprisals (such as more than 3,000 killed in Kraljevo and Kragujevac) unless some great gain could be accomplished; instead, he favored delayed sabotage that could not easily be traced.
And so on...
And great to see you here on ET more often again!
Throughout the War, the Chetnik movement remained relatively inactive against the occupation forces, and increasingly collaborated with the Axis, losing its international recognition as the Yugoslav resistance force. After a brief initial period of cooperation, the two factions quickly started fighting against each-other. Gradually, the Chetniks ended up primarily fighting the Partisans instead of the occupation forces, and started cooperating with the Axis in their struggle to destroy the resistance, receiving increasing amounts of logistical assistance (in particular, from Italy).
During the Yugoslav wars, Serb paramilitaries often self-identified as Chetniks. Vojislav eelj's Serbian Radical Party formed the White Eagles which was identified as Chetniks. Vuk Draković's Serbian Renewal Movement was closely associated with the Serbian Guard, which was also associated with Chetniks and monarchism.
In late 2004, the National Assembly of Serbia passed a new law that equalized the rights of the former Chetnik members with those of the former Partisans, including the right to war pensions. Rights were granted on the basis that both were anti-fascist movements that fought occupiers, and this formulation has entered the law. The vote was 176 for, 24 against and 4 abstained. The Socialist Party of Serbia (SPS) of Slobodan Miloević was the one voting against the decision.
Today Chetnik activity is seriously restricted or banned in all neighbouring countries other than Serbia and Republika Srpska in Bosnia and Herzegovina. Milorad Pupovac of the Independent Democratic Serbian Party in Croatia, has called the organization "fascist collaborators". In 2003, the Montenegrin government forbade the building of a statue of Pavle Đuriić near Berane.
We have had discussions of similar Polish and Baltic factions in the past... A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith
They were both patriots, and fascist.
Well I don't think so. As I said looks like they did cooperate at some points with Germans and Italians against communists but they were far from fascists. Ideologically they were NO fascists. As opposed to Ustashe that were WORSE then German fascists.Ideologically and in practice... Would Americans give Legion of Merit to a fascist? Looking at the present time...Well one never knows haha. What your Croat friends have to say about Ustashe ?...I am curious...
Hey, it's well-documented that the Americans enlisted former Nazis to fight the Communists after WWII, so...
I never debated WWII with my Croatian friends, but I can tell you a large part of them had no patience for Tudjman.
Interestingly it tended to be either older people, or the girls my age. The boys my age (they were between 15 and 20 in the early 90's) were all gung-ho nationalists. Must be a side effect of the high testosterone levels. A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith
Also you really shouldn't make the mistake of saying that because they fought against one set of fascists that somehow makes them non-fascist. The Polish fascist resistance group NSZ, for example, consistently fought the Nazis during the occupation, but they were very much fascists - more so actually than the Chetniks, and just as much as the Ustashe.
We have had this debate before, and I have conceded your point that Franco was a soft fascist.
But I'll still call him a fascist anyway even if it's not 100% accurate in political science terms.
Franco may not have been a fascist, but the CEDADE and the Falange were straight-out pascists, and he folded them into his National Movement. A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith
Not quite sure how the Ustashe were worse than the Nazis.
Those who presented (or still present) their selves as Chetnics nowadays have absolutely nothing to do with real Chetnics organization that is actually non-existent nowadays. Some oldies may still live somewhere in exile but they are really old and totally out of touch with what is really happening on the Balkan. Sheshelj used them to get hold of their money representing him self as Chetnic (and he can't be farther then that).Similar thing is with Drashkovic. Those oldies finally realized those false Chetnics are only interested in their money and they do not want to have anything with those thieves.
But Tito and the communist owe their power in Yugoslavia mainly to the support of Churchill and the British.
When talking to Croatian friends in the 90's they would accuse Yugoslavia of being a Serb supremacist device to destroy Croatians as an independent people, and when I said "but Tito was a Croat" they said "but he was a Communist".
It's all about bogeymen, and when the ethnicity of the bogeyman is not the right one you can always blame the Communists. (Like Stalin the Georgian and Brezhnev the Ukrainian)
Bah, humbug. A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith
Who is you? Not me, that's for sure. A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith