The US still provides most of the leading edge technological innovation, although this is changing. Essentially all the important work in electronics, computers, the internet and communications has come out of the US or been based upon such original work.
Much biomedical research also has a US basis (or did until recently).
In addition "innovations" in finance and international trade have come out of the US. That things have been allowed to go too far is a weakness in governance, not innovation.
The premise of the US: "all men are created equal", is still unmatched by any other nation. Some have more compassionate social policies, but the idealism taught in civics classes is not as strong. The US is also the longest running democratic country even with its problems.
The trick is to make the ideal closer to reality. Some of us are trying... Policies not Politics ---- Daily Landscape
The US still provides hope to the oppressed. People are risking life and limb to get into the US, I don't think the same thing can be said of Russia.
I don't really want to get involved in a nationalist "my country is better than yours" type debate, but lets look at the evidence.
That the US remains an economic powerhouse, despite being in relative decline (share of world GDP), is not in dispute. However the Bush regime has seen an almost unprecedented decline in US political prestige. Despite such wealth, the US imprisons a larger proportion of its population than almost any other, there are huge and growing economic inequalities, poor public services, its "democracy" - with low voter participation rates, partisan control of the electoral system, dominance of big money commercial interests, politicisation of the judiciary etc. are not seen as a model by many other democracies of equivalent wealth.
I suppose part of my thesis above is that whereas the US has been extraordinarily successful in many ways, it has seriously lost its way politically in recent years, so much so, that even its economic dominance is now under threat.
rdf:
The premise of the US: "all men are created equal", is still unmatched by any other nation
I think you need to get out of the US more! I think you will find that in many ways the US is being left behind when it comes to equality of opportunity, social mobility, and educational attainment - even in countries still emerging from economic/political under-development... "It's a mystery to me - the game commences, For the usual fee - plus expenses, Confidential information - it's in my diary..."
Then why on earth did you write such an inflamatory diary, singling out one country many ETers call home and asking what it is good for? Come, my friends, 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world.
However my answer was not framed in terms of US exceptionalism, or claims to superior or inferior national virtue - but more in terms of the changing underlying structure of the Global world order - from multi-polar to Bipolar, to Unipolar - and suggesting that unless we build really strong global governance and International Law structures - we could be heading back to a world order structurally reminiscent of the multi-polar one we had prior to WW1.
That, in my view, is in no one's best interest.
My purpose in publishing this as a diary is to promote an analysis based on the structure of international relations rather than on comparisons of ascribed or claimed national virtue, entitlement, morality, divine destiny or whatever.
Thus the claim that rdf:
The premise of the US: "all men are created equal", is still unmatched by any other nation.
If you do not believe a Unipolar world order is sustainable indefinitely, you have to make a case for a better alternative - and that in my view is a much more regulated international system of international treaties, conventions and organisations with much stronger law enforcement mechanisms.
I'm happy to consider any alternatives you or others might like to offer, but my point is that we don't want to slip back into a multi-polar world order without strong global governance mechanisms if we want to avoid ww3. "It's a mystery to me - the game commences, For the usual fee - plus expenses, Confidential information - it's in my diary..."
We disgaree. Come, my friends, 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world.
My original question/comment was: how can you ask what America is good for (anything?) and then say you want to avoid conflicts rooted in feelings of national inferiority or superiority. Either you're being 1) insincere 2) utterly naive or 3) not up to the task you've assigned yourself. It makes no sense to me. Come, my friends, 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world.
Alternative to what? Your one world government? No, that sounds great. Let me know how it works out. My original question/comment was: how can you ask what America is good for (anything?) and then say you want to avoid conflicts rooted in feelings of national inferiority or superiority. Either you're being 1) insincere 2) utterly naive or 3) not up to the task you've assigned yourself. It makes no sense to me.
My original question/comment was: how can you ask what America is good for (anything?) and then say you want to avoid conflicts rooted in feelings of national inferiority or superiority. Either you're being 1) insincere 2) utterly naive or 3) not up to the task you've assigned yourself. It makes no sense to me.
There is a very big difference between an enforceable system of international law and a world Government, but I suspect you were just mocking me.
America was quite good at leading a Unipolar world order - it didn't impose a Stalinist/Nazi style dictatorship - but it has been less good at preparing itself and the world for an era in which unipolarity (or world dominance by one power) is no longer achievable and a system is required which can control the excesses of a number of major competing powers as we had prior to WW1 and WW2.
My whole thesis is that there are structural requirements to maintaining stability in such a complex system and that national feelings of superiority or inferiority are largely beside the point.
However I have the sense that we are talking past each other on this and so, if you don't mind, I will give our bilateral conversation on this a miss. "It's a mystery to me - the game commences, For the usual fee - plus expenses, Confidential information - it's in my diary..."
it didn't impose a Stalinist/Nazi style dictatorship
No, it didn't, but it did impose a consumer-friendly corporate dictatorship where jackboots and military music were replaced by tinkly seductive advertising and endless reinforcement of the idea that eight hours of work a day, aren't just good for you, they're the law.
In smaller countries the US has been very good at imposing Stalinist-style dictatorships.
We've had a fine time in Europe, more or less, inside the Capital Curtain, but outside life has been rougher - much rougher. If there's one thing I'd take issue with in your diary it's that it's written from a Eurocentric view which doesn't acknowledge that.
I've said before that I don't think there's one US, and also that there's no point having a go at individual people from the US because they're not in much of a position to change anything - at least, not soon.
But politically it seems obvious the US is very much a traditional imperial aristocracy with token voting. The token voting makes it look like a democracy, but policy is set - rigidly - by a self-serving would-be aristocracy, and bottom-up basics like health care get the bare minimum of attention from the left and none at all from the right.
If you want democracy, look at Scandinavia. The politicians are mostly boring, but that's how it should be - if you're being ruled by crooks, spivs, perverts, clowns, freaks, and liars, you're not living in a democracy, no matter how often you vote.
At the same time people are far more timid about political assertion than they were a century ago. The US and European labour movements were tough - and there's nothing like them today, either in the US or in Europe.
This would be of abstract interest if the US didn't seem determined to take everyone down with it. If it was an internal problem we could look on in quiet horror. But it's our lunch that's being stolen, and that makes it personal - and hard to take when we're told that we should be grateful that we're being robbed.
The early labor movements were rough, because it was war, and People who stood up against the mine owners were killed, violently. Anyone want to discuss the real history of Colorado during the late 19th century?
I think we should all agree here that because of its position, and because of the blatancy of its actions, amurka is the most dangerous government to anyone who wants to till their own garden. That there aren't millions of people in amurka who also want to till their own gardens GOES WITHOUT SAYING.
I miss my friends, i miss my fog, i miss my pretentious wine dinners, but i will not stop making sure that the people who control amurka have their day in the docks. For what they do today, not for what they've done since they landed there. Skennah Kowa
Frank Delaney ~ Ireland
In smaller countries the US has been very good at imposing Stalinist-style dictatorships. We've had a fine time in Europe, more or less, inside the Capital Curtain, but outside life has been rougher - much rougher. If there's one thing I'd take issue with in your diary it's that it's written from a Eurocentric view which doesn't acknowledge that.
Stalin killed c. 43M people. Pinochet et al may have been bad but they simply weren't in the same league. I have several times acknowledged that Europe prospered under the US dispensation, whilst most overt conflict was pushed to the third world under both the Bipolar and Unipolar systems - Vietnam under the former, Iraq under the latter. Horrible as these were are, they still don't quite compare with the world wars.
Enslaving people through consumerism and a marketing technology which insidiously makes them dependent on you may be bad - but again, it doesn't compare with the slavery of direct and brutal physical repression. People can liberate themselves from the former through education and consciousness raising. Under Stalin and Hitler any opponents - and many innocents - simply did not survive.
At the risk of being accused of being an America lover (sorry Poemless) I would argue that Pax Americana has been a good deal more benign than what preceded it, and what may yet succeed it. I don't look forward to a world where China, India, Russia, Iran and a much weaker US are fighting increasingly extensive wars for control of remaining oil, food and water supplies... "It's a mystery to me - the game commences, For the usual fee - plus expenses, Confidential information - it's in my diary..."
The US killed 2 or 3 million VietNamese, and the puppet game they played of Iraq and Iran since the 50s has killed several several million more, at least 2 million since the 90s. The American dead buried in Johnson's and Nixon's and Reagan's and Bush's graves total a lot fewer by bodycount, but by the count of industry and production that could have gone to creating a more perfect world, the count is metaphysically as high.
Not benign. Something, but not benign. That the US also produces things that do help make a more perfect world just mocks further their loss of soul when they allow their base instincts to be in control.
The worst part is the loss of what could have been, if the power and control had been used for less treacherous purposes.
Power and control are not bad things in and of themselves. But the power and control was used to do with refinement the same things as the pre-WW empire times, make money and empire, but decrease the losses of bodies at home and hide them abroad.
I write that loss of potential is the worst part, but my feelings are that it is the saddest part.
Animal House exposed Stalin (when it wasn't brilliant to do so.) It seems over the top to call out the US and its version of capitalism for the same errors.
There is a vacuum calling out for another Orwellian fairy tale to describe it in a way that exposes it. Blogging doesn't do it. Never underestimate their intelligence, always underestimate their knowledge.
well-provoked, sven, well-presented frank, fantastic discussion. The person who says it cannot be done should not interrupt the person doing it. Chinese Proverb.
I agree, you can't really compare eras and leaders on the basis of raw body count. The opportunity cost of what could have been - if all the innovations and technology we now have had been put to positive and productive use - is now greater than it has ever been.
In previous eras we didn't have the technology to end famine and disease - now we so, and we use it to wage war.
In purely moral terms, ours is probably the greatest failing. "It's a mystery to me - the game commences, For the usual fee - plus expenses, Confidential information - it's in my diary..."
[The US] did impose a consumer-friendly corporate dictatorship where jackboots and military music were replaced by tinkly seductive advertising...
Enslaving people through consumerism and a marketing technology which insidiously makes them dependent on you may be bad - but again, it doesn't compare with the slavery of direct and brutal physical repression.
Sven is a self-admitted provocateur, and the framing he used never leads to positive conversation, so I didn't bother replying when I saw that comment.
you are the media you consume.
Well, I think many countries provide hope to the oppressed. Middle-Easterners and Africans aren't moving into Europe looking for a shittier life, after all.
But, yes, I'd agree that there are certainly people risking life and limb to get here.
I don't know the industry well enough to say, but that's my impression, too. You're right that it's changing, though. Certainly countries like Ireland and Israel are more than capable of playing ball these days.
Yes, quite a bit. Europe, too.
The premise of the US: "all men are created equal", is still unmatched by any other nation. Some have more compassionate social policies, but the idealism taught in civics classes is not as strong.
Um, "Liberté, Egalité, Fraternité"? Right off the top of my head, I think you're shortchanging France there. WHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!
Essentially all the important work in electronics, computers, the internet and communications has come out of the US or been based upon such original work.
No, this is completely untrue. The US did some of the original work, but by no means all of it.
The web was invented at CERN by an Englishman. Packet switching was invented in the UK. The original Turing description of state machines which is the basis of modern programming was invented in the UK. The first stored-program computer was built in either the UK or Germany, depending on who you ask. The idea of the integrated circuit was invented in the UK.
What the US had was the resources to develop and monetise these innovations and the evangelical marketing cadres to proselytise them to the rest of the world.
The web was invented at CERN by an Englishman.
Yes, but we're the ones who put porn on it. WHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!
But the chip card was invented in France, marketed in the US alas (the call of money was way too great for the inventor), but France was a much earlier adopter. Even today, there is far greater use of chip cards and contactless cards in France than in the US (Japan has more contactless though -they tend to lead the US and Europe by a few years rather than follow).
Similarly, Minitel was around in France years before the internet became public. Again, it's the lack of opportunity to monetise and impose a standard to the world that made it decay compared to US based alternatives. "The womb that spawned that thing is fertile yet"
Similarly, Minitel was around in France years before the internet became public. Again, it's the lack of opportunity to monetise and impose a standard to the world that made it decay compared to US based alternatives.
(I remember, however, the German PTT (Post), obtaining an ordinance banning the use of (packet switched) networks at around the same time that the FCC in the US banned extra charges for the leased lines in such networks. Years later, when you wanted to connect a computer to the telephone network (via a modem), while AT&T send a leaflet with instructions for you, the German Post Office send you the police.)
Then the European Commission – in what appears to be a dry run for the Lisbon program – joined the PTTs in instigating the OSI effort. It apparently intended to obfuscate computer networking enough to confuse the Americans out of the market . . .
There is a funny vestige of this time in the OSI model. There one finds a presentation layer designed to accommodate various encodings. This works only as intended with pure character data, as in a terminal device. It is out of place in most other situations (and awkward to implement). Amusingly this model has found much pedagogical use.
So, I'm afraid, the Minitel was down a blind alley (what it promised would later become the Web-Browser). An American Minitel or IPhone would have failed as well, then. (Cf., for a discussion of the recent trend towards web-appliances the book The future of the Internet and how to stop it/ Jonathan Zittrain. New Haven, c2008. )
Now, indeed closing it was not going to give you a massive expansion such as the web saw, but it would be unfair to say that Minitel did not significantly contribute to the internet. It saw the creation of many online businesses, with a business model that was far more credible than a lot of the dot coms startups. "The womb that spawned that thing is fertile yet"
Suffice to say it's probably not a compliment ;-)
Hint for those who truly need it: credit bubble anyone? "The womb that spawned that thing is fertile yet"
Now the energy situation is re-tilting the playing pitch in favour of net energy producers and you can hear the outrage of the neo-cons that they are having to pay what somebody else decides is a fair price. Even military intervention isn't enough to maintain that dominance any more.
The reality is the rules will increasingly be written by others. This is a recipe for huge and sustained international conflict unless a system of global governance can be put in place which takes the interests of all the players into account.
The EU is a model of how that can be done at a regional level. We probably need to do it at a global level if the post WW2 era of relative peace and prosperity is not going to break down irrevocably. "It's a mystery to me - the game commences, For the usual fee - plus expenses, Confidential information - it's in my diary..."
The framing around the discussion is not accurate, however. US institutions themselves are in serious decline, as is the infrastructure. Japan and Europe have far more advanced phone and mobile networks, and the regional grids are not decrepit. Rail innovation, so crucial to the next generation, is also far more developed.
The US democracy is so broken as to be a joke. Voter fraud is the most sophisticated in the world, and has a history going back two centuries. The influence of capital in the game has reached absurd levels. The Fourth Estate has become the world's most sophisticated propaganda network.
Where other regions really shine is in current technological innovation. The kind of innovation which matters to the next generation's survival. Renewable technologies, for example, are a complete product of European innovation; now even including the commercial aspects globally. Compare that to Detroit. Even GE's US market leading wind turbine is German, and the leading German machine in the US, Siemens, is Danish. The rest come from Japan, Spain, India and other European entries. Even the most capitalized US startup uses technology from the Swedish wind program.
Same with solar.
I have direct personal experience with how US courts denied obvious prior art in European technology, while the US company that "won" was bankrupt within two years. The technology is still withheld from the US, and it is the premier technology in my field. Justice is available to corporations and the rich, and that's it.
There's no question there's still much innovation to come from amurka, but not likely until the beast is battered and the nation is digging out from its own financial meltdown.
Amurka is a dinosaur, but it still drives the world's condition, today mostly negatively. Skennah Kowa
Japan and Europe have far more advanced phone and mobile networks, and the regional grids are not decrepit.
The iPhone's cheaper here, though. :P WHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!
That's new, and satisfying.
