What is America good for? | 149 comments (149 topical, editorial, 0 hidden)

Re: What is America good for? (4.00 / 3)

I don't think twenty five generations would do it.

Rounding up every child who showed signs of excessive dysfunctional aggression or narcissism and seriously impoverishing the rich would do it. The rich do often seem to grow up with a sense of entitlement and disconnection from reality, so forcing them to live in that reality would create some changes.

It's not a practical answer either, but it's possibly more practical than aliens are.

My point about aliens was that all you'd get then is just another fantasy war scenario - it wouldn't be the human identity you were looking for, just a different enemy to hate and fear. I.e. business as usual.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Tue Aug 12th, 2008 at 07:08:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What is America good for? (4.00 / 2)

It's not a practical answer either, but it's possibly more practical than aliens are.

I agree. A neonatal diagnostic test for narcissistic and borderline personality disorders is possible someday, though.

My point about aliens was that all you'd get then is just another fantasy war scenario - it wouldn't be the human identity you were looking for, just a different enemy to hate and fear. I.e. business as usual.

Ok, sorry for the overreaction then. I agree with your point.

you are the media you consume.

by MillMan (millguy at gmail) on Tue Aug 12th, 2008 at 08:00:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

What? (none / 1)

MillMan:

I agree. A neonatal diagnostic test for narcissistic and borderline personality disorders is possible someday, though.

Or not.

What evidence do you have that these disorders are present at birth?

by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Wed Aug 13th, 2008 at 06:35:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What? (none / 1)

None. I said "someday" because neuroscience is pointing us in that direction.

you are the media you consume.

by MillMan (millguy at gmail) on Wed Aug 13th, 2008 at 07:04:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What? (4.00 / 3)

These are psychological groupings, which may or may not map consistently in terms of neurology (my bias being on the may not side). In either case, even if there is a good mapping, it does not need to be present at birth. It can be something that only materialises during growth.

by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Wed Aug 13th, 2008 at 07:57:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What? (none / 1)

For any condition I'm assuming there is a continuum across the population from absolute genetic determination to zero genetic determination, with environment playing the odds for all the non-absolute cases. If true I have no guess as to what the distribution would look like.

you are the media you consume.

by MillMan (millguy at gmail) on Wed Aug 13th, 2008 at 08:35:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What? (4.00 / 2)

From what I have read in the literature there may be some genetic predisposition that favors narcissistic and borderline conditions, but the predominant factors are environmental, especially the nature and quality of parenting. There is a lot if indication that it takes both predisposition and bad parenting/bad environment to produce the more notable bad outcomes. And a lot of what may once have been considered genetic may well be epi-genetic environmental programming, including environmental toxins along with behavioral toxins.

As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Sat Aug 16th, 2008 at 01:17:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What is America good for? (none / 1)

Rounding up every child who showed signs of excessive dysfunctional aggression or narcissism and seriously impoverishing the rich would do it.

Wasn't that first bit an actual Labour proposal at some point?

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Tue Aug 12th, 2008 at 10:37:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What is America good for? (none / 0)

Dunno - but early diagnosis of childhood developmental conditions such as ADHT is always beneficial in therapeutic terms and cost effective in health care terms. However I don't really see the relevance in terms of the structural political analysis I have been trying to conduct here - countries don't go to war because they fail to treat their narcissistic/dysfunctional children - they go to war because of a failure of leadership to provide appropriate structures to resolve conflicts of interest and the many other excuses that are trumped up to create casus belli.

"It's a mystery to me - the game commences, For the usual fee - plus expenses, Confidential information - it's in my diary..."

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Wed Aug 13th, 2008 at 06:52:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What is America good for? (4.00 / 3)

Most leaders - and certainly all of the most dangerous and destructive ones - are clinical narcissists and/or sociopaths.

Further down the scale, the most 'successful' business and finance types are milder versions of the same syndrome. Wall St selects for them on the basis of being 'hungry' and aggressive enough to go after killer deals without any interest in the consequences for people whose lives are affected by them.

We really only have one planetary problem, and that's how to deal with these people to prevent them hurting themselves and others. Without this particular form of mental illness, politics and economics would be very much more straightforward. It would certainly be much easier to deal with almost every issue in a realistic way.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Wed Aug 13th, 2008 at 07:01:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What is America good for? (none / 0)

bingo cubed!

it's a mental/spiritual disease, stemming from not enough love and security.

all monsters are created this way.

The power of knowledge is in mortal combat with the knowledge of power. It really is that simple... That's the Edenic apple we are all munching on.

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Wed Aug 13th, 2008 at 08:03:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What is America good for? (none / 0)

countries don't go to war because they fail to treat their narcissistic/dysfunctional children

with all due respect frank, i think you are 180° wrong on this.

who teaches kids to hate and become narcissistic?

The power of knowledge is in mortal combat with the knowledge of power. It really is that simple... That's the Edenic apple we are all munching on.

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Wed Aug 13th, 2008 at 07:39:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What is America good for? (4.00 / 2)

melo:

who teaches kids to hate and become narcissistic?

Bad parents and teachers do. However I have always been amazed at the resilience of kids in even the worst circumstances - kids whose parents were drug addicts, sociopaths, who were sexually abused, beaten, starved or who caught up in gangs. Many are damaged for life but many also survive and grow into remarkable adults.

I think we are in danger of a logical fallacy here. Just because some kids are dysfunctional and some leaders are dysfunctional doesn't mean that one caused the other. We select/elect our leaders according to certain societal norms and with special interests trying to exert their influence. But who, ultimately, is responsible for those that make it to the top?

We are.

"It's a mystery to me - the game commences, For the usual fee - plus expenses, Confidential information - it's in my diary..."

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Wed Aug 13th, 2008 at 08:57:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What is America good for? (4.00 / 7)

However I have always been amazed at the resilience of kids in even the worst circumstances - kids whose parents were drug addicts, sociopaths, who were sexually abused, beaten, starved or who caught up in gangs. Many are damaged for life but many also survive and grow into remarkable adults.

yup, you're right on that, however they are the exception, not the rule.

the other side of the coin is that many with this disease are hidden in plain sight, in niches where their pathology can run amok in many many tiny ways, utterly lacking the unsubtle grandiosity of the cartoon arch-villains we love to point to.

it's my contention that the accumulative effect of these petty barbarities constitutes hannah arendt's famous banality of evil, cutting in to the moral grain of society with a million daily cuts, each too small to grok... until you consider the effect en masse.

Bad parents and teachers do.

actually i feel that parents and teachers flail helplessly to mitigate socio-cultural currents of mad-ave, totally amoral, self-as-little-godling narcissism.

totally overwhelmed by the tsunami of media babble, peer pressure has become the only guiding light for many young people, haplessly devoid of any guidance or wisdom from their elders, who find themselves too morally rootless, flummoxed by the dizzy rate of change, to offer much in the way of advice.

it worked for great grandpa, and grandpa, started coming unglued for me, and as for you, son, well good luck to you making a life in the psychic rubble you've inherited from our colossally ignorant malfaisance.

oo, look what's on telly tonight!

The power of knowledge is in mortal combat with the knowledge of power. It really is that simple... That's the Edenic apple we are all munching on.

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Wed Aug 13th, 2008 at 02:19:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What is America good for? (none / 1)

I must be really lucky. My kids keep me on the straight and narrow. Daaaaaaad you've had enough wine!

"It's a mystery to me - the game commences, For the usual fee - plus expenses, Confidential information - it's in my diary..."

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Wed Aug 13th, 2008 at 03:32:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

What is America good for? | 149 comments (149 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)

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