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I don"t think inviting Russia to join the EU is a good idea!

It would change the whole dimension of the EU project, as the biggest part of the EU would then be in Asia. This would change the European project into an Eurasian project, with a different scope.

Also, Russia would have to accept to abandon part of its sovereignty, which I don't think it is ready to do.

Anyway, Russia would first have to meet the Copenhagen criteria, which is unlikely to happen soon...

However I am all for a very strong cooperation treaty between the EU and Russia to favour the progressive opening of our countries to each other and the development of cultural and economic exchanges.

 

"Dieu se rit des hommes qui se plaignent des conséquences alors qu'ils en chérissent les causes" Jacques-Bénigne Bossuet

by Melanchthon on Thu Aug 14th, 2008 at 07:49:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I tend to agree with you, and the suggestion wasn't entirely serious.  However we need to send a very strong signal to the US that we are not going to go along with a repolarisation of the cold war.  Your suggestion of a friendship and cooperation treaty between the EU and Russia is probably the best option.

Both sides have a lot to gain from this.  Russia doesn't want to be isolated again as it was during the Cold War, and Western Europe needs Russia Oil and gas.  A mutual determination not to be divided and conquered would suit both parties.

We can't let the neo-cons (or the Russian hardliners?) win this one.

"It's a mystery to me - the game commences, For the usual fee - plus expenses, Confidential information - it's in my diary..."

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot dotty communists) on Thu Aug 14th, 2008 at 08:03:10 AM EST
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Your suggestion of a friendship and cooperation treaty between the EU and Russia is probably the best option

That's what I proposed in my half-drunk speech in Nizhny-Novgorod...

"Dieu se rit des hommes qui se plaignent des conséquences alors qu'ils en chérissent les causes" Jacques-Bénigne Bossuet

by Melanchthon on Thu Aug 14th, 2008 at 08:16:15 AM EST
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I think a friendship and cooperation treaty would be purely token, and rather meaningless.

More formal trade links and - perhaps more usefully - sharing of technology and innovation could have more of an influence.

What makes Russia strong at the moment is that it has already fallen apart - and it didn't. The vassal states split off, but there was no internal East/West split. So today's Russia has a strong and coherent political identity which would swamp that of the EU.

Russia will calm down, at least for a generation or so, if the US stops being aggressive and confrontational. The problem isn't on this side of the Atlantic and can't be solved here.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Thu Aug 14th, 2008 at 09:32:15 AM EST
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What I meant was not a token treaty, but a comprehensive program of trade, industrial, scientific, cultural and educational links as well as exchange at local level (i.e. between regions and municipalities from both sides). Also I think holding regular political meetings at government and parliament level about common issues would help to improve relations a lot.  

"Dieu se rit des hommes qui se plaignent des conséquences alors qu'ils en chérissent les causes" Jacques-Bénigne Bossuet
by Melanchthon on Thu Aug 14th, 2008 at 09:47:02 AM EST
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"It would change the whole dimension of the EU project, as the biggest part of the EU would then be in Asia."

How about if only the European part of Russia joins? That would include most of the Russian people and economic activity. The Asian part could be kept on as a Russian satellite country, or maybe a province, perhaps called "Siberia."

by asdf on Thu Aug 14th, 2008 at 09:15:18 AM EST
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How about if only the European part of Russia joins?

Surprisingly, that's what some of the high-level Russians I met in Nizhny-Novgorod were claiming. They were sounding very contemptuous towards the "Asians" (including those belonging the the Russian Federation), saying "for centuries, we have protected Europe from these barbarians"...

IMHO, it not at all desirable and, anyway, it wouldn't be possible: I don't see how the secession could take place. And the European Union as it is doesn't foresee the possibility of such a thing as a "satellite state" (with what statute?). In fact, in case a secession would happen, your "Siberia" would most probably become a satellite of China...

"Dieu se rit des hommes qui se plaignent des conséquences alors qu'ils en chérissent les causes" Jacques-Bénigne Bossuet

by Melanchthon on Thu Aug 14th, 2008 at 10:02:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]
And the European Union as it is doesn't foresee the possibility of such a thing as a "satellite state" (with what statute?).

Greenland, anyone?

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Aug 14th, 2008 at 11:10:07 AM EST
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Greenland is NOT an example we want to follow. Danish treatment of Greenland has been shameful at the best of times and outright colonialist at the worst.

And at any rate, Greenland is an integral part of Denmark in a constitutional sense. It's a Danish municipality that has been granted quasi-independence through various and sundry lex Greenlands.

- Jake

If you only spend 20 minutes of the rest of your life on economics, go spend them here.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Thu Aug 14th, 2008 at 11:26:54 AM EST
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Indeed, there are many 'oversees territories' that are not officially in the EU. There also many that are. But Siberia is a lot bigger (42 milion people).

Either way, by the time we get around to Russian entry we'll be in 2040, or something. It's all very hypothetical.

by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Thu Aug 14th, 2008 at 11:31:09 AM EST
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You know, no one really counts Moscovites among Russians - and there were probably many of them among your counterparts in Nizhny. Russian as spoken in Siberia is pretty close to the literature norm too - if there's a linguistic center of the country, it's there.

The people who would be happy to live within 17th century borders - mostly no Asia - are "professional Russkie", or fundamentalist, nationalist, and cave Orthodox types. I doubt very much EU would be happy with this country as a member.

by Sargon on Thu Aug 14th, 2008 at 02:41:19 PM EST
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Those who told me that were probably from Moscow, but they didn't seem to be ultra-nationalists or fundamentalists. I was shocked by their discourse and, indeed, I wouldn't like Russia to join the EU on such basis.

"Dieu se rit des hommes qui se plaignent des conséquences alors qu'ils en chérissent les causes" Jacques-Bénigne Bossuet
by Melanchthon on Thu Aug 14th, 2008 at 02:52:59 PM EST
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russia will buy the EU, they don't need to join it, unless we pull our finger out!

~"When an inner situation is not made conscious, it appears outside as fate." Karl Jung~
by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Thu Aug 14th, 2008 at 07:29:52 PM EST
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You know, no one really counts Moscovites among Russians - and there were probably many of them among your counterparts in Nizhny.

Also, they were drunk.

...

And don't even get me started on the "Moscow is not really Russia" and "Where is the true soul of Russia located?" debates.  uhg.

"Pretending that you already know the answer when you don't is not actually very helpful." ~Migeru.

by poemless on Thu Aug 14th, 2008 at 02:55:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]
MHO, it not at all desirable and, anyway, it wouldn't be possible: I don't see how the secession could take place. And the European Union as it is doesn't foresee the possibility of such a thing as a "satellite state" (with what statute?). In fact, in case a secession would happen, your "Siberia" would most probably become a satellite of China...

Oh, oh, oh. I have to tell this story.

I work as a teaching assistant at a state university.  

Last year I was in the class that I was a TA for and the professor goes off on a tangent about how sections of the Russian military are worried about Asiatic hordes invading Siberia.  

So a hand goes up on the left side of the room.  Blonde girl looking a bit confused.......

So she asks the professor, "Dr. ***, why is the Russian military so concerned about Chinese prostitutes?"

This was a running joke between us for the next month....


And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg

by ManfromMiddletown (manfrommiddletown at lycos dot com) on Thu Aug 14th, 2008 at 09:24:14 PM EST
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Oh, oh, oh. I have to tell  

you sexism is not funny, even if sexists are easily amused creating their own reality.

Our knowledge has surpassed our wisdom. -Charu Saxena.

by metavision on Fri Aug 15th, 2008 at 03:55:06 PM EST
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It could have as easily have been a male student, the joke is that the thought that they thought he said whores instead of hordes.  It has nothing to do with the sex of the student.

And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg
by ManfromMiddletown (manfrommiddletown at lycos dot com) on Fri Aug 15th, 2008 at 04:27:04 PM EST
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"Blonde girl..."

"Pretending that you already know the answer when you don't is not actually very helpful." ~Migeru.
by poemless on Fri Aug 15th, 2008 at 04:47:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That was a description of the person in question.

If I told the same story, and replaced "blond girl" with "guy in a football jersey" would that be sexist as well?

And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg

by ManfromMiddletown (manfrommiddletown at lycos dot com) on Fri Aug 15th, 2008 at 09:30:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]
additional blind spots
like dominant arrogance, that are not the least bit attractive,
that prove the power of misused terms for lack of questioning...,
that further prove educational titles do not imply personal, human development,
that show insecurity within the ´intelligentia´ still precludes social progress through irrelevant arguments,
that explain why the ERA has not been ratified in the US,
.....  
Thanks to ´the DK left´ <snark>

Define for yourself, boy, guy, man....


Our knowledge has surpassed our wisdom. -Charu Saxena.

by metavision on Sat Aug 16th, 2008 at 07:35:53 AM EST
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Our knowledge has surpassed our wisdom. -Charu Saxena.
by metavision on Sat Aug 16th, 2008 at 07:40:42 AM EST
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Russia would also have to figure out how to convince Poland and the Baltics to approve membership. In fact, any agreement requiring unanimous member state approval is DOA right now.
by MarekNYC on Thu Aug 14th, 2008 at 10:55:29 AM EST
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