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if I don't respond to everything. I am posting from deep in the French countryside, on dialup, and it's not working very well.

Further reading:
The west shares the blame for Georgia by Anatol Lieven
Russians losing propaganda war (BBC)

I have posted this on DailyKos:
http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/8/16/162535/287/572/568966


In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Sat Aug 16th, 2008 at 04:40:50 PM EST
The Lieven article should be shared far and wide.

"Pretending that you already know the answer when you don't is not actually very helpful." ~Migeru.
by poemless on Sat Aug 16th, 2008 at 04:45:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]
One problem for the Russians is that they have not yet learned how to play the media game. Their authoritarian government might never do so.

Right! They did not learned how to lie, make false assumptions, put fake photos, press people minds with constantly putting same false pictures of destructions, refugees...like CNN, BBC and other western media.
But truth is slowly appearing anyway...truth about USA , western Europe , NATO and others actions. No one else believes western media. People are turning to Al Jazzira to learn truth. They may even turn to Russia today as time goes...


Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein

by vbo on Sat Aug 16th, 2008 at 10:24:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]
They [the Russians] did not learned how to lie, make false assumptions, put fake photos, press people minds with constantly putting same false pictures of destructions, refugees..

I hope this is snark...

"Dieu se rit des hommes qui se plaignent des conséquences alors qu'ils en chérissent les causes" Jacques-Bénigne Bossuet

by Melanchthon on Sun Aug 17th, 2008 at 08:32:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]
No it's not.
Did you actually followed what was happening with west media at least last 15 or so years???
Even western people with a grain of brain DO NOT TRUST their own media any more...It's NO better then Soviet media from communist era...it's even worse propaganda. And World knows it!It's all "naked" today!

Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein
by vbo on Sun Aug 17th, 2008 at 07:17:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You don't answer my comment. I was not saying the "western" media are credible. I just find laughable the claim that Russian media "did not learn to lie, make false assumptions..."

"Dieu se rit des hommes qui se plaignent des conséquences alors qu'ils en chérissent les causes" Jacques-Bénigne Bossuet
by Melanchthon on Mon Aug 18th, 2008 at 04:18:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well we all had perception that Soviet media is totally non credible and actually pure propaganda and that western media is FREE and truthful.
I just wanted to make clear that this perception is now exposed to be wrong.
Neither Russia is USSR any more, nor western media is free or truthful (if it ever had been). Actually it looks like they changed places. Of course Russian media is biased at least in international affairs but there is a big difference between being biased (but still cling to the facts) and "fabricating" favorable reality,  ignoring facts or making them irrelevant.


Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein
by vbo on Mon Aug 18th, 2008 at 07:24:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The so-called "western media" aren't an homogenous ensemble. Many media in France, Germany and probably elsewhere provided a balanced view of the Georgia conflict. Indeed some of them were very critical towards the US.

"Dieu se rit des hommes qui se plaignent des conséquences alors qu'ils en chérissent les causes" Jacques-Bénigne Bossuet
by Melanchthon on Mon Aug 18th, 2008 at 09:08:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]
As poemles already said before we are talking here about big names that most of the people get their news from. It's really pitiful and this has been exposed now to the world. World did not realize this during NATO aggression on Serbia or events leading to it during decomposition of ex -YU , but with war in Iraq it was much more obvious. Now it's a definite truth and world see it clearly. Even West world (people or at least a lot of them)...Propaganda masters  underestimated their own people's thinking capability. And of course we should all thank God for Internet...without it, it will be very dark around western hemisphere.

Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein
by vbo on Mon Aug 18th, 2008 at 09:35:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]
She spoke about the press written in English, that is not equivalent with big names that most of the people get their news from.
In Europe there are both more native French and more native German speaking people than English speaking people. The articles MarekNYC translated from Polish showed a wide variety, and were all from major Polish news sources.
I really don't understand, why you portray the non-English press as irrelevant. Have you realised, that the main acting international organisations were the EU and the OSCE in the conflict, not NATO, not a coalition of the willing?

Der Amerikaner ist die Orchidee unter den Menschen
Volker Pispers
by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Mon Aug 18th, 2008 at 10:04:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes I can only talk about English language media because I can only follow them and some of the others that emit on English (like DW that looks some better to me then CNN and BBC ) and are available broadly.
I can not guaranty what is happening elsewhere in West but I have a gut feeling that most of the others are following (copying) in BBC and CNN foot steps. Prove me wrong where ever you can...


Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein
by vbo on Mon Aug 18th, 2008 at 08:34:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I have a gut feeling that most of the others are following (copying) in BBC and CNN foot steps. Prove me wrong where ever you can...

Well, I tell you it's not the case for the French media, Martin tells you it's not the case for the German media, MarekNYC showed it's not the case for the Polish media, so your "gut feeling" is wrong. I also think we would find it is the same for the Italian and Spanish media.

I will not waste time to "prove" you wrong. Either you believe us or our dialogue is useless and you can stick to your prejudices.

"Dieu se rit des hommes qui se plaignent des conséquences alors qu'ils en chérissent les causes" Jacques-Bénigne Bossuet

by Melanchthon on Mon Aug 18th, 2008 at 10:23:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Ok.I will believe you...please follow as much as you can with translation of the articles from your papers.
But what is the case with TV around rest of the Europe? And I am asking about "big names"...people are mostly informed through TV nowadays, I suppose...

Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein
by vbo on Tue Aug 19th, 2008 at 01:53:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]
So you mean only English-speaking media matter?
I must remind you that, in Europe, only 65 million out of 500 million have English as a native or official language (including Ireland, Cyprus and Malta)...

"Dieu se rit des hommes qui se plaignent des conséquences alors qu'ils en chérissent les causes" Jacques-Bénigne Bossuet
by Melanchthon on Mon Aug 18th, 2008 at 10:28:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]
http://www.moonofalabama.org/2008/08/superpower-hypo.html#comments
The opinion of the european people, that may be less blinded by the propaganda to follow and support a unlimited endless war, doesn't matter a bit right now. As in the US you can just choice between two faces for the same policies. There is no choice between policies in the western democracies. And in the coming years as the european media becomes less free and even more controlled by the same interest groups than the US media any remaining oposition or doubts will disappear.


Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein
by vbo on Sun Aug 17th, 2008 at 07:57:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]
What's amusing is to see the leg humpers huff and puff that they are something other than neocon propaganda apparatchiks. In totalitarian states/times, there was no need. In the West, particularly in the AngloAmerican sphere, media lickspittles feel find it necessary to pretend they are anything but servants, hence the hypocrisy.


Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein
by vbo on Sun Aug 17th, 2008 at 09:53:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

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